RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket.

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Mordorito)

quote:

I seriously think you would enjoy making sushi. It has a similar artisan aspect of building guitars, you get immediate feedback and satisfaction from your customers, but it is more marketable in the long-run. If you were able to get experience in Japan, that would be a competitive advantage for you should you ever leave Japan. It is somewhat hard on the body, though, so this may not be the best alternative .

It takes about ten years to get good at it. Just like everything else. I will become an expert on eating sushi.

I suppose I should not complain the future might be fun, at least food wise, but I'm not counting on the romantic idea that the Japanese embrace crafts and arts more than in America.

Sushi is one of those things, I have had good sushi from cutters of various backgrounds, buy I always find the Japanese are better at it. Sort of the way Gitanos sing better flamenco than everyone else. In my opinion, I guess there a few non gypsy singers, but I can't think of them right now...

And all those little oily fish have lots of omega 3 fatty acids to help the aging brain stay in shape.

My girlfriends dad said the mayor of the town wants to come visit us when we get there, so I could host game show: American Douchebags in Exile. I could have my buddies come stay with us a talk to the mayor on TV and do stupid stuff. I really hope it all dies down quickly I really just want to be unknown and hide.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 3 2013 23:40:35

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 13 2013 16:58:48

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 2:10:37

johnguitar

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

You can buy a guitar from one of 43 makers here in Granada. This number is quite accurate but includes some amateurs and some makers who are retired and would perhaps only make a guitar for a special client. I am also including the few makers from outside the city (but within the province) that have traditionally been part of this community. Only 4 out of 43 label factory-made guitars with an (unsigned) shop label. This is a practice which was much more common 20 years ago. The heart of this activity 20 years ago was the Cuesta de Gomerez on the way up to the Alhambra but today there are only two makers there. No Deteresa, there is nothing wrong with putting things in perspective but if you are twisting the truth the perspective is skewed. And yes I can deny that there is a lot of murkiness and flat out dishonesty in Spanish guitar making. The tradition of dishonesty comes from those who wish to profit from other people's work. This is the role of the retailer and often the large workshop owner. I am sure you can think of examples of hype and cheating in the first case and then in the second case there are the most famous large workshops that depended on workers and when times changed they were unwilling to change their business model and continued to label as their own products made by other hands (in this case factories). I hasten to add that both Ramirez and Casa Ferrer (in Granada) did great things for guitar making in both cities by hiring and in some cases training many makers in the days before the Valencian invasion.

Sadly, as Estebanana manifests there is a new dishonesty mostly found in the United States. I would say, however, that it is guitar selling, not guitar making that is the racket. The racket consists of finding an unknown maker and promoting him or her as the holy grail. A lot of money can be put behind this project and high profile players can be asked to record videos and endorse this new guitar. Once again our tastes are being dictated by the marketing people. Another variation is for the new maker himself to market his guitars very agressively and professionally. Obviously if the instruments are excellent there is no problem, but that is very often not the case. Orsonw made a good comment that before he educated himself he found this hype very believable. Although there is a huge number of amateurs making instruments that "look right" I don't see that as the problem. The problem for the maker is that half of our sales go to non-professionals and those people are sometimes lacking in the experience or skills to evaluate a guitar for themselves. Sorry to pick on you deteresa but yes there is a huge customer base of rich folks who want an expensive guitar and are willing to buy it sight-unseen. This opens the door to the unscrupulous re-labeller (Spanish or otherwise) and the american hypster (dealer or maker). Again, if the guitar has a good price-quality ratio and is appropriate to the needs of the buyer it is just sour grapes but even the well-meaning amateur maker who sells in our price range deserves our wrath.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 5:11:10

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Very nice post John. Puts things into perspective.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 8:42:34

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to johnguitar)

quote:

I would say, however, that it is guitar selling, not guitar making that is the racket. The racket consists of finding an unknown maker and promoting him or her as the holy grail.

I witnessed exactly this kind of manner with La Sonanta. I was in touch with a unknow luthier, chating with him via email and then found one of his guitar in that shop. The Sonanta's price was x3 higher than his direct selling price. And the little text/ads presentation of the item was stating about the newer discovering talent, very promising blabla marketing thing...
So I asked the luthier about his feeling regarding this aspect. He told me that what the shop do with his items was not his concern anymore. That they're free to charge for the value they consider to be fair.

This first hand experience of mine encourage me to never ever purchase a guitar in such a shop. Even if La Sonanta enjoys good reputation among foro members, it's not at all my impression based on this personnal knowledge.

Seems that dishonesty can also be practiced in Europe.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 10:29:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

dishonesty you find everywhere.

many years ago I was contacted by this very famous Californian shop. they wanted to sell my guitars.
The deal was that they would have all rights for the US, sell the guitars for the same price as I was selling them for, pay me 50% and all costs like import and shipping. There is nothing dishonest in that IMO.

But the problem is that you cannot survive this way, so what is being done by many builders is to use a shop like this one to be "famous" and then raise their prices. Pretty honest.
Then these builders have an official high price, and an unofficial lower price for hermanos/amigos. let the foreigners keep the price high and the locals get cheaper. This has been done by many Spanish builders and its one of the reasons that all this runrun is being said and its also the reason that many Spanish flamenco players expect to buy your guitar for a very special hermano/amigo price.

I said no back then and I'm glad I did so. I also say no to those wanteing special price my friend. I try to stay out of all this bullsh*t

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 12:51:02

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to akatune)

quote:

In Japan, unless you are in Tokyo, you are the elephant man (one that all women want and one with a huge schlong) but an elephant man never the less. That is what I mean by "extreme culture shock." You cannot go anywhere without being started at.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 14:02:47

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

All of this is simply life in a free market and of course business ethics which is always subjective and a matter of perspective.

A dealer who chooses to promote a maker is putting his or her own reputation on the line. If the dealer really believes that the guitar has quality and there is something there to sell upon, then thats business and like it or not, we are all in business when we hang out our shingle. The price of any guitar should be as much about the quality of that particular guitar as much as the name on the label. Anyone, dealer or otherwise is free to price whatever guitar they have at whatever price they choose, it's their guitar now. If you don't like it, don't buy it. I've sold a few guitars for more than the average price simply because it was an exceptionally good example of that builder's work.

My first priority is to provide for my family. Since I (foolishly?) choose to try and do that as a builder and dealer of guitars the bottom line is always present. However my business model is based on my integrity as a builder which is always strive to go beyond that which is expected and work as hard as I have to to ensure a happy client. If I succeed in that goal then I have done good and if I do well by doing so, all the better.

I have to disagree with the regional label of "racket". That to me is assigning greed or any other unsavory trait in the human condition, to a specific group when we all know that it's universal. As a dealer I have made the decision to not represent makers directly, for a few reasons not the least of which being I am a maker first and foremost. The other is I know how much work it is to sell a guitar, how much time it takes and effort on my part. I know that if I were to represent a maker directly then I would have to ask them to take a good size cut in their price. Not something I really feel comfortable doing as I didn't really like that when I was represented by dealers. I ended all those relationships simply because of the economics. That and I don't love building guitars so much that being removed from direct interaction with my clients is a trade off I am willing to make. To me the interaction with my client is exactly what I love about building and selling guitars.

I also have to disagree with the idea that pros are better judges of quality than amateurs. It's simply not true. Pros might be a better judge of what will or will not work for them but some of the best ears I've encountered are not stuck on the heads of professional guitarists. That's just my personal opinion. Further on the amateur note, no less a luthier than Robert Bouchet was an amateur guitarmaker his entire life. We should all aspire to be that kind of amateur.

Basically what I am saying is making a living in lutherie as either a builder, dealer or both is a very hard row to hoe. To try and do so runs a very big risk of burning out, being miserable with the amount of work vrs. the monetary payoff, feeling overlooked, questions the success of your peers etc. I'm not excluding myself from any of that, I've experienced all of that and still do. As far as I can tell though this is still one of the most honorable professions when it comes to the professional behavior of those who engage in it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 14:09:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

I also have to disagree with the idea that pros are better judges of quality than amateurs. It's simply not true. Pros might be a better judge of what will or will not work for them but some of the best ears I've encountered are not stuck on the heads of professional guitarists

I think it depends how you define a "pro" vs an "amateur". I think if you are NOT a good player you won't know what the instrument has to offer...period. When I was in college I was forced to take piano class for music theory. It sucked cuz I was not interested in proper technique or anything, it was just basic tool for understanding harmony for the general music student body. (i argued that it sure helps other instrumentalist and vocalists, but most guitarists understand harmony fine and I would have liked to opt out). Well there were a dozen pianos in the building and waiting turn to find any open one was fine to practice our homework. AT first they ALL sounded and felt the exact same to me. IN spare time I took it on my self to learn about half of a bach prelude that I loved. It was tough and I just did it by ear, but after some hard work I got it sounding like a "pro" of sorts. It was the ONLY thing I could play, but it was so fun to have it down.

But the shocking thing was after knowing just THAT short piece, all the details of the different pianos jumped into my face. I realized which pianos were mute or bright or bad action etc...all from just being able to freakin play something. I found myself in a whole different world, a different dimension in the practice rooms. I found myself patiently waiting for the GOOD piano to become free. Having played guitar so many years and taking this thing for granted, I have to wonder honestly about guitar buyers that really don't have any skill yet. ITs not all hype that certain level of players gravitate to a certain type of instrument.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 15:03:19

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to aarongreen)

Exactly-any activity or business is subject to individuals who promote themselves beyond their abilities.

There is a local musician who advertises his services as a flamenco guitarist. He explained his selections as "Fendangoes, Soleerares, bullerrias, sigurrias, tengos, etc"

I was amused, and sent him a private note advising that his ad might be more convincing if he spelled the names of the forms correctly. He responded by telling me he was a full time pro, and to F&%# off. :-)

Since he spams craigslist, I couldn't help noticing that he corrected the spellings, but also noticed that even if he surgically implanted dr. compas in his ass, he couldn't play in compas. I'm sure he gets gigs all the time. I guess if I was in the business of trying to get those same gigs, it would annoy me a bit......but since I'm not it doesn't.

I'm in the construction trade and we have some competitors who have no business being in the trade. No license, no insurance, and little knowledge or experience. Sometimes these guys get significant jobs-how a client could trust them to do the work I have no idea, but they do. Sometimes I get a bit annoyed at these guys, but they haven't stopped me from making a living.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

I have to disagree with the regional label of "racket". That to me is assigning greed or any other unsavory trait in the human condition, to a specific group when we all know that it's universal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 16:50:03

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

I agree with Ricardo here and I just want to add that when it comes to flamenco guitars, (and all other instruments, but this is a flamenco forum) its not enough to be able to judge sound.
Playability and pulsation is equally important and that you wont understand if you dont have a good level of playing that exact kind of instrument, so the amateur might choose a beautifully sounding instrument that is impossible to make sound beautifull.
Just as I´m 100% sure carpenter know more about chosing the right hammer than I do and I am a pro within woodworking.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 16:52:52

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

At the end of the day I just want to be able to play some music myself. But when I have to work and work in a music providing business without being able to do the thing that got me into it in the first place it just gets to me. Hopefully when I get some moving and other things sorted out I'll be able to play two hours day most days. If that does not happen in the next year I will change how I do business because the personal price I pay for not being able to play music is too high. Maybe that means making bows again or teaching....or making even better guitars and asking two and half times as much and moving into a higher eschelon of builders.

Re: Bouchet, I always think of him as an artist who had two real jobs. Calling him an amateur seems to short him of his commitment to guitar making. I think he was professional in the respect that he divided his time between guitar making and teaching art. He was consulted by other professionals and he taught and traded ideas with them. There should be some other language to describe his place other than designating him an amateur.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 18:51:08

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

as an amateur player and non-luthier i really do tip my hat to those trying to make a living as a luthier--lots of work and a struggle to make a living.

i often marvel how someone can stay in business when the potential buyers are a small pool of amateurs and even smaller pool of professionals. then one has to factor in the desire for us buyers to get "the deal of the century" and not understanding all that goes into making a guitar especially such things as shop costs, buying health insurance, etc. etc. now i know why guys like ramirez spent so much time/energy on estudios guitars, etc.

as to amateurs knowing what they want. i think brand new players may not know what they want and/or need but after a while most of us amateurs know the sound and feel of what we want but it comes down to how much cash we are willing to part with to get that sound/feel. this difficulty with parting with large amounts of cash affects luthiers and makes that small pool of amatuers out in the world as potential buyers even smaller. there is a difference between spending $5k for something nice in one's life and spending $5k to generate a paycheck to pay the rent and put food on the table.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 19:30:07

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Bouchet was in fact an amateur, he did not support himself as a guitarmaker, nor did he need to. Thats different than doing amateur level work, which I certainly didn't mean to imply.

Most people I've worked with are very much aware of how a guitar feels relative to their needs. Not always of course, it depends on their skill. It could be argued though that if it doesn't make a difference to you, it doesn't make a difference. As you become more familiar with what you are doing, you develop sensitivity to the nuances and details. Taken to it's highest level you have to be deeply committed and put in the long hours. "Easiest" way to do that is to make it your life's work. I mean "easiest" in the sense of being able to dedicate the largest amount of your time and effort towards that goal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 19:39:34

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

At the end of the day I just want to be able to play some music myself. But when I have to work and work in a music providing business without being able to do the thing that got me into it in the first place it just gets to me. Hopefully when I get some moving and other things sorted out I'll be able to play two hours day most days. If that does not happen in the next year I will change how I do business because the personal price I pay for not being able to play music is too high. Maybe that means making bows again or teaching....or making even better guitars and asking two and half times as much and moving into a higher eschelon of builders.

This is important Stephen and I think you´ll have to take a good look at your preferences.
Maybe you need to cut some places. I cant accept my life if I dont have the time to play some 1 - 1 1/2 hour a day. If I dont do that, I loose everything!!! My way of doing it is being tough with myself. I use very little money. I buy very few things and I go out a max of 1 time a month, because its so simple: If I need more money, then I cant live a thing I dont want to loose.
I personally wouldnt mind building less and earning some of my money in another way. Maybe I could then have something which is called a social life. I can even see myself stop building if I get an oportunity to do something else. The way I live now has a high personal cost, even though I play every day.

Aaron... I think you need to think about what you wanna say when using the word amateur. Bouchet = Amateur = bad example.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:49:26

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

Taken to it's highest level you have to be deeply committed and put in the long hours. "Easiest" way to do that is to make it your life's work. I mean "easiest" in the sense of being able to dedicate the largest amount of your time and effort towards that goal.

Well that is if you're an American brainwashed into the Calvinist work ethic that we are addicted to. In the classical music trades many of the best luthiers and bow makers also play music. This is kind of what I'm getting at, and maybe this is a "first world problem", but in a sense I think of Bouchet as a professional level maker even though he did not have to do to support himself (I'm sure the "extra" money was nothing to complain about!)

In this country we are in a position where the men kill themselves working and die before the women die. I think we sacrifice quality of life over making a living and making money. Money is the Superstar here. I would say the highest level is it be a master at what you do and also have a personal life worth living, what ever that means to you. One can be a master at more than one thing or do two things at a very high level, case in point Bouchet's mastery of guitar making and his position as an art teacher. Or maybe a guy programs computers and likes taking photographs or a dancer gardens and writes books about gardening that get published. Or a cello maker is also a mystery novelist. We are all like Bouchet, too complex to spend our time doing just one thing.

In America you have to fight against the mentality that we are one dimensional. Where does a guitar maker get the personal fuel and inspiration to go on? Maybe for some it is through the work of guitar making and for others it is through experiencing sonic pleasure in other ways. Or looking at some other type of art. We also don't all get better at things in the same way. One guy might need to grind away at the work bench 14 hours a day, but for another person learning and getting better may be more cerebral.

At the root of my frustration is the idea that in America you have to sell, sell, sell and broker yourself. An this is where the racket comes in; Americans will say anything to sell anything, and now I see that in the guitar making world. In reality it is true you have to sell yourself and your work, but at the end of the day we need to step out of that in some way. Bouchet apparently did it by making guitars after a day of teaching drawing.

In America the Bouchet model of wholeness of life is a type of thing that is not honored. The man is supposed to kill himself through single mindedly "doing the right thing" and pushing everything aside to sell- sell- sell. That may be what is for sale here, but I'm not in the market to buy that life. And no guitar maker, dancer, carpenter, waitress should have to. We can always make time for life.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 20:57:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

In this country we are in a position where the men kill themselves working and die before the women die. I think we sacrifice quality of life over making a living and making money. Money is the Superstar here

Well growing up I always heard about and was discouraged about getting into music. I was always quite motivated even after discovering flamenco late in my music training where the market is even smaller. Oddly the more I ignored what I was told and followed my desires wherever they took me, the more success I found. After 20 years or more of making it my one and only goal, I can't see anything that changes my view on this. The others I see not succeeding as much were simply never as motivated or inspired as I was. They invested little in terms of time or money etc and the returns were minimal. My friends that really invested heart time and money, they are making it too.

I know there are some colleagues that see me play Rumbas for example as a way to sell out or teaching as fall back...but honestly I put equal heart into that stuff cuz I WANT to. And I think when flamencos come visit and after a serious intense flamenco workout with dancers or whatever, come see my rumba band they realize I am not just entertaining drunk monkeys and bar flies for cash, I really enjoy the artistry and energy of it. I have my limits to what I think is appropriate of course... sometimes a rumba thing is bad taste...other times cante is not appropriate for a certain audience, etc. But Point is I don't need to compromise beyond what I really want to DO...and whenever I do (cuz I need fast cash or my wife makes me or do a friend a favor) and I feel it's not right...well, the consequences are infact something negative after all. So as much as possible I attempt to stay inspired and do what I want that also feels right and appropriate for the moment and I am usually met half way with some success.

I advise to stick to your guns and be positive about it. IF you feel you are worth more charge more. If you want to play more, then PLAY more. In the end complaining doesn't do anything.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 21:21:50

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Hi Anders
Bouchet is a perfect example. He built guitars as he pleased. Once again, I never said his work was amateurish nor that he wasn't a Master. I've got two in my shop right now and I can tell you that he was an artist first and foremost. It's a question of interpretation of the word and my point was that simply to point out the limitations of the negative connotation.

Stephen,
There is a huge difference between what is valued and what makes money. I know many great teachers who aren't rolling in money but are highly regarded and valued. They are Masters, they made it their life's work and not for the sake of the money. If you are railing against a materialist world, then you should unplug and go sit in a monastery for a while. I'm not joking. You can exist within that world without it consuming your soul. If thats the only world you see then you really need to go sit for a while. It's hardly just an American issue.

Just my two cents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 21:28:31

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Good post John and I get where you're coming from. I certainly didn't mean to imply that all or most makers are engaging in shady practices.

But it does seem murky and dishonest to me when 3 basically identical guitars come off the same factory floor, one with a Hermanos Sanchis Lopez label, one with a Conde Hermanos label, and one with a Francisco Barba label, that will all be sold for very different prices to unwitting customers.
The number of threads started on these forums about "who the hell made my orangey colored guitar" are a testament to the confusion.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 23:21:53

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

I agree with everything that Aaron Green has written and everyone saying that independent lutherie is a meritocracy.
You just can NOT make it in this business by hyping yourself, you simply have to produce excellent results and satisfy your clients. I'm just starting out but that's been my #1 goal, and what I enjoy more than anything else is building an instrument that will make the buyer happy in every way. At the end of the day it is a pretty damn big chunk of money we are asking them to fork over and what we deliver has to be worth every penny and then some.
I started selling my guitars as soon as I and my teacher decided that they were good enough to sell, at prices that were competing a heck of a lot more with Spanish factory guitars than most independent luthiers.
Whatever hotshot gets ahold of a Reyes plan and decides to go into business will affect the bottom line of an established luthier like Stephen Faulk absolutely zero. They simply won't be able to compete in the same price range unless they are making a phenomenal instrument for a beginner.

I believe that certain people, like "El Polaco" Jorge de Zofia on this forum, have a true talent that manifests very early on in a building career. After talking with him for an hour or two on the phone I can tell that he has the attention to detail and the understanding of what makes a great instrument to produce saleable guitars almost immediately, which is what he has done. I believe that I also had that ability, and people who own my earliest guitars still rave about them so I am satisfied that I did.

If I were a different kind of person I could be jealous or bitter about Jorge making such nice instruments but I simply can't find it in my heart... I'm too much of a proponent and enthusiast of flamenco guitar making to do anything but try to help him out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 4 2013 23:43:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

If you are railing against a materialist world, then you should unplug and go sit in a monastery for a while. I'm not joking. You can exist within that world without it consuming your soul. If thats the only world you see then you really need to go sit for a while. It's hardly just an American issue.

What is this, Hamlet? Estebanana get thee to a nunnery!

If I went to sit in a meditation hall I would probably become homicidal. Unless the meditation hall was Club Med. I have not had a vacation since 2005 so I'm ready to go Club Med(itation) and sit on my keyster for six to seven weeks and get a massage everyday and drink cocolocos on the beach. Umbrella drinks are not usually my thing, but I highly recommend the Macadamia Nut ChiChi.

It kinda of supports what I said about in America you have to fight against the culture of over working and not having a life. If you say something about how material we are you're thought of as the unwell person. Most monasteries charge you to sit for a retreat, and you can't really escape there or live in bliss. In a monastery you are really actually more in your own face than in the secular world where you have lots of distractions. Being sequestered in a life of spiritual contemplation is really, really hard work. And who will feed the dog and pick up the poop while you sit there and search for yourself? And what most Americans don't know about buddhist contemplative life is that you have to have some money bank rolled to become a monk in an American sect. Most of the time retired folks become monks they live on their pensions while leading a monkey life.

Having said that there is a difference between pure sitting meditation and working meditation. And in understanding your own spiritual problem....one sect, the Soto tradition says the problem will arise naturally in life and will hit you in the face or pinch you on the butt. Other sects, like Renzai say the teacher should give you a problem. Hence all the grasshopper what is the sound of one fart farting koans that beginner yuppies love to say.

My problem usually arises by itself with my help. It's called ****gin with other people too much. Also known as playing the Devils advocate to excess because I'm bored, tired, in pain and need vacation at a non meditative monastery location replete naughty nuns and strong drinks.

If you like I can tell you the story of the "Fukc Buddha"....better than that tired old Tripitaka monkey mind story.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 2:32:22

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

You need a vacation? Then take one. Problem solved.

Why though do you think that any of what you are saying though is unknown to me? False Buddhas or a bankrolled life of detachment? Heaven forbid.

I thought I was saying all along that you have to exist in the "real world"... if you choose to. You could also go sit under a freeway and to hell with the dog or it's poop. Thats a choice. You won't be the first.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 3:52:04

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Hey you're getting kind of huffy I'm just having fun playing with words.

Looky, you implied there was something wrong with me because you perceived my issue was with materialism, it's really not. Then you told me I needed to go some where to sit because I had a problem with materialism. Then I sassed you back for telling me something I already know about.

So I knew that you knew that I knew that you were trying to tell me something I already knew, but knew you were not knowing it first and then you counter knew it anyway.

You fatty greasy human baggety bag of protoplasm.

Never go Full Retard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 4:23:41

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

My first engineering job was for a tech startup that grew from $20-million per year sales to $200-million in two years. I worked for one of the founders, a sterling gentleman who became one of my best friends. He taught me how to live within the corporate beast with a degree of integrity.

After ten years I was boss of a small group within the company. After fifteen years I was boss of a larger group. The company had largely turned to $hit, but we were somewhat sheltered by an honest product line manager. When I was later part of an employee owned company, one of the young guys said he thought maybe he should get some big company experience, but he had heard there could be a lot of office politics. I told him that when I worked for a big company, we didn't have office politics. We had office terrorism.

At the big company, my employees would sometimes come to complain to me about the surrounding $hit storm. I would tell them, "Figure out what it would take to make you quit. Until they do that, don't worry about it."

So, Stephen, what would it take to make you quit? What would it take to make you take a vacation?

For a good while I traveled a great deal. I have over 2-millon miles on one of my frequent flyer cards. My playing suffered badly from lack of practice. So badly I tried to quit. Couldn't do it. Bought a flight case. Now the Ramirez 1a blanca has a million airline miles of its own.

Time to walk on down the street and shoot a few photos of Wat Phra Singh in Chiang Mai, Thailand.

Happy New Year to one and all.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 5:39:48

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Huffy? Not quite but next time you start up with the "I'm ready to quit and move on because..." I'll take it as just another mental bathroom visit. This isn't the first time I've seen you go off on that tangent. So it was my bad in the end.

Seriously though, light a match.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 12:56:22

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Time to walk on down the street and shoot a few photos of Wat Phra Singh in Chiang Mai, Thailand.

Glad to see you are in Chiang Mai, Richard. Chiang Mai is one of my favorite places, so different from Bangkok. I had the good fortune of pulling a four-month State Department consulting gig at the American Consulate General in Chiang Mai in 2006. It is an interesting 700-year old city, and I was always intrigued by the moat surrounding the central part.

There are many interesting places in and around the city. For a sense of nostalgia for the old British expatriate life, You should go to the Chiang Mai Gymkhana Club for a drink. It is located on Lamphun Road. It is the oldest sports club in Thailand, founded in 1898 by the British Vice Consul and some British teak loggers. One of the founders was L.T. Leonowens, the son of Anna Leonowens, who was the real-life inspiration for the book and movie "Anna and the King of Siam." I became a member of the club during my sojourn in Chiang Mai, and always enjoyed a "sundowner" on the club's veranda in the evenings, facing a beautiful, huge rain tree on the grounds. I became a member to play squash, and I still have a couple of Chiang Mai Gymkhana Club shirts among my squash gear.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 5 2013 14:49:44

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Richard,
I hope your gaggety camera is responding to all your commands.

I would like to see your photos when you return.

Thank you for pointing a question at me instead telling what I should do. I don't really have an answer. I tried turning the question inside out and asking what would it take to get me to keep on going, and I could not think through that one very well either. As for taking a vacation I cannot, I don't have the money to take time off. If I stop moving for five minutes the demand for money to feed the bills and rent would consume me and put me behind. In that respect I'm like most of the working poor in this country. I live hand to mouth and I make it up each day, I have little time or leisure to vacation. I'm going to dump everything I own, give my truck to one of the family members, stick a few boxes of tools on a slow boat, get on a plane, go to another country and start over. If it were not for Jason McGuire I would be living in the street, or under a freeway. He graciously let me stay in his recording studio for the winter, which is a palace compared the accommodations under the over pass. But that is the kind guy he is, besides being one of most interesting musicians I have ever known in any genre or form. Artists take care of each other and someday I'll return the commitment. ( he gets any guitar he wants) I'll never be a dealer and neither will Jason, we're dealing other issues, probably are both crazy. Our women think we are.
I'll keep thinking about your question, so few questions stop me in my tracks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2013 1:08:55

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen

In situations like the one you describe, thinking very often doesnt help. It just makes you go in circles and eat you up from the inside.

What about your intuition, what does it say? Any hints. No dont think about that. Just obeserve and take notice, then sometimes a line starts turning up...

I´m not going to say what you should do and I dont think its necessary. You already know what to do and I hope that your new adventure will be much more possitive. I´m in another land and I´ve been here for 11 years. It takes time, but well life is for that. Isnt it?
I have a feeling that was is happening for you now, is that fear about the future is taking your energy. There´s not much you can do but try to be patient. One day you´ll be on that aeroplane and what is bothering you now will be over. There will be something else waiting for you. Try to get to that new place in as good a personal condition you can. Be good to yourself.

Maybe stop turning your inside out on this forum. Its not a very healthy place to do so. It can be a very rough place and sometimes has huge consequenses sometimes. Few members understand what you´re going through.

I´m in a very complicated situation my self, and what helps me is to do something that I like. In my case its to play. I´m less time on the foro now and I play more. So since you´re complaining about not having time to play, maybe it can work for you as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2013 7:50:29

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana)

When I would ask the same question of my employees, the main point was not to make them think. It was to encourage them to lay down a marker so they could stop thinking.

It is indeed difficult to take a vacation from being poor. I was once poor, but I was much youger than you, so I had plenty of impulses to do dumb stuff. Getting my ass out of a variety of cracks distracted me from my financial situation.

I would think that moving to Japan would provide plenty of useful distractions. Sounds like a plan.

I really love the camera. The fountains in the Chiang Mai moat were making rainbows today.

For dinner at the night market I had an excellent soup of coconut milk, shrimp, lemongrass, galangal and a variety of other twigs, roots and leaves, over a serving of steamed rice, accompanied by a watermelon smoothie. These Thais know how to live.

Larisa had to go back to the USA to work, so I'm relying on the single traveller skills honed by decades of business travel. You meet some really interesting people.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2013 14:18:03

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Larisa had to go back to the USA to work, so I'm relying on the single traveller skills honed by decades of business travel. You meet some really interesting people.

RNJ

Richard, are you saying you are going to pick up some chicks because your girlfriend left town!?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 6 2013 16:52:04