Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Guitar making is becoming a racket.   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

Guitar making is becoming a racket. 

Yes or No?

Please discuss.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 20:58:29
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I don't think so. But, I don't rely on making guitars to put food on my table.
What is happening that makes you say this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 21:08:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I will say internet fantasy land is spilling over into real life... although only a little bit thanfully. But its funny to hear opinions on guitars now a days vs just 10 years ago.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 21:18:41
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I'm discouraged and as I work everyday at the bench I feel like I'm wasting my time and life. Today anyone can buy the plans ( Reyes Model ) and the tools and be up and running in a few months and make a guitar and sell it. The reason they can do this is because all those who spent years figuring it out discuss these things on the internet and any one with three brain cells left can read it and make a guitar that looks correct.


People who spent time learning an waiting for five years before they call them self a maker seem to be getting shafted. I have a friend in Canada who makes killer Torres model classicals , but he has a houseful of them.

There's a discussion on another website now where a beginner player asks about flamenco action and two big wigs start talking about how the flat plane in front of the bridge is where the guitar gets it's power and projection. And then proceed to ignore the guy with the question while they have a penis extending conversation about the projection of the Reyes modern flamenco guitars vs. Santos old fashioned guitar and they base all the judgment on bad video recordings.

So to me projection is a subjective quality to some extent. And it's not something you can reliably monitor and judge on you tube videos when a guitar is being played through a PA system and then video recorded. Yet here are those who should be honest about it and they are taking this idea town, meanwhile the guy just wanted to know some practical information. I laid out for the beginner how a guitar should feel under your hand so you don't injure yourself and can do alzapua & rasgeaudo and they two big wigs continue this unrealistic talk kind of inferring I was wasting time.

So it comes from both the newbie builders and some builders who should know better. The reality has drifted from this whole enterprise. I used to be able to ignore, but business does not get better and the unreality seems become more a part of the guitar making business. It feels like it's just becoming another trade where if you can scam hard enough you'll get business.

The exploration and the innocence is off the flower for me. It takes so much out of your body to make guitars I have fatigue 24 hours a day. I just wonder at the end of the day why? I see others playing music, but I'm so wrecked from bench work I can't play anymore and have the fun of practicing and learning new music, yet I sit here and grind out descent work that has personality and get precious little for it. One thing or other has to change and if it does not I think I will walk away from whole thing.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 22:07:51
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

The reason they can do this is because all those who spent years figuring it out discuss these things on the internet and any one with three brain cells left can read it and make a guitar that looks correct.


This is the blessing and the curse of "the giant brain" we call the internet. There's no way on earth I would have progressed as fast as I did in flamenco without it. Then on the flip side I have clients that second guess every decision I make 'cus they read on the DIY channels website otherwise. I have a doctor friend that has the same problems from time to time.

It's seems unfortunate but only a select group of people can really appreciate what you do and what separates it from the hobby builders. Even more unfortunate I don't see how things will get better regarding this...........

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 22:18:22
 
tele

Posts: 1404
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Leñador

Personally I don't think so, even when there's obviously a whole lot more info available these days from the internet for the beginner luthier. In the end there will be always people who do things properly and those who do not.
Building a proper guitar requires a whole lot practice and I believe most people who are intending to buy something for 2000+ euros are going to try more than one guitar. If someone can make a good guitar and wants to make a living with it it's completely fine as long as the guitar is good for the money. In the end it's not something most people do only because it's easy money. If it would be (no matter how much info is available), there surely would be a whole lot more people doing it. The problem starts when some people are doing guitars just because they think it's easy money, I'm glad there's not a whole lot of them. Because to make a guitar for which people pay a whole lot of money (2k-6k euros) you have to do a whole lot of work, and that can't be called racketeering.

What a luthier could do is talk with guitar builders of spain(for example in granada) and see what do they think of it as most of them have been a good while in the business.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 22:30:34
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to tele

quote:

The problem starts when some people are doing guitars just because they think it's easy money,


Ha.. that's a good one there
-----

If a racket is defined as doing business based on dishonesty then yes, that does exist in guitar making. Andalusian guitars comes to mind.

But the Spanish invented "guitar making as a racket". Nowhere will you find more dishonesty in the business of guitar making than with Spanish makers and factories... just take a stroll though Granada and you will find, on the one hand, some the finest classical and flamenco guitars being made anywhere, in the source where the tradition and culture of those instruments was born, and on the other hand, a ton of tourists and even relatively knowledgeable guitarists being supremely scammed into buying factory instruments that they believe were made by a master craftsman.

I remember recently the disappointment that "El Tortuga" felt when everyone on here informed him that his "Barba" was actually straight from Valencia.

I don't think we non-Spanish guitarmakers have the luxury of running a racket. We actually have to build a reputation based on producing great instruments and letting the word of mouth spread, and it is most definitely NOT an easy way to make a living. If you have a return policy it would be basically impossible to scam any discerning guitar buyer (which is basically all there is in that price bracket). Not only that, as an independent, one-at-a-time guitarmaker, if you produce an instrument that isn't up to the standard of the buyer, well..maybe you don't eat that month

Not much racketing going on among independent luthiers IMO.
People spouting lots of BS on the internet? Oh yeah, plenty of that....

And it ain't goin' away as long as forums exist.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 23:10:25
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2826
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I'm discouraged and as I work everyday at the bench I feel like I'm wasting my time and life. Today anyone can buy the plans ( Reyes Model ) and the tools and be up and running in a few months and make a guitar and sell it. The reason they can do this is because all those who spent years figuring it out discuss these things on the internet and any one with three brain cells left can read it and make a guitar that looks correct. People who spent time learning an waiting for five years before they call them self a maker seem to be getting shafted. I have a friend in Canada who makes killer Torres model classicals , but he has a houseful of them.


Elaborate a little bit, Stephen. I cannot imagine that someone beginning as a luthier who buys the plans (for a Reyes model, for example) and some tools, and after experimenting for a few months, is capable of making a guitar anywhere near the level of quality and refinement of one of your guitars, or that of some other luthiers on this forum. As you state above, he may be able to follow the plans and look stuff up on the internet, and come up with a guitar that "looks correct." But surely there will be a big difference in sound, tone, and playability. It will take him years to reach that level of refinement, just as it took you and others years to reach it.

So what are we really talking about here? Does the newbie price his guitar at the level of a much more refined instrument, and gullible, unknowing people buy it at that price? Or does he sell it at the much lower price it deserves, and people looking for a much cheaper guitar purchase it? In the end, then, are we talking about lack of knowledge of, and appreciation for, a finely-crafted instrument on the part of the consuming public? I guess what I am driving at here is that there will always be a cohort of guitarists who know and appreciate quality. But they are a very small cohort, and once they have one or two instruments, they will be unlikely to consider further purchases. There is a large consuming public, however, who might just want to learn to play guitar and aren't particularly concerned with the craftsmanship that goes into a fine instrument.

I sympathize with you and other luthiers who put your hearts and souls into your work. For you, it is a labor of love. But if my questions and observations above have any validity, I don't know an answer to your dilemma. By the way, when do you plan to make your move with your lady to Japan? I have no idea, but maybe the situation will be different there. Have you looked into Japanese guitar-buying habits and trends? I know there are some who appreciate very high-end quality. Toward the end of his luthiery career, almost all of Gerundino's remaining stock was sold to a Japanese. I imagine there are many who just want a guitar without thinking much about craftsmanship as well.

Hope things pick up for you in 2013, amigo.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 2 2013 23:28:43
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Here is the Reyes guitar I drew from a 1969 Reyes. The design is the same as the famous Reyes drawing that is published. The difference is that is was a stop on the way in my development not an ending place where I make a Reyes model.

Reyes got his inspiration from Santos, because Santos did build this way sometimes. and Santos probably learned this design from some one else, possibly Manuel Ramirez used the same seven fan design without cut of bars. It's pretty cut and dried. So some one is going around claiming this is "Modern" with capital a M design and it's about 100 yrs old. How fracking hoy en dia can you get? Que guasa.

I don't mind people doing what ever they need to do, but sometimes the enormity of the bullshiet gets to me. Like where does it end? I've buiklt the sam guitar and sold it, but I did nto have to wrap myself in the Flag of Reyes, I simply built it because I was studying the masters and he's not the only one. Many of us did this to apprentice through how the important builders worked and now you can just go buy the pan an some tools a have at it without any real historical knowledge. it got me form one place to the next and now I do something that is more my own and with different kind of sound, but everyone one wants a cheap Reyes copy so why want your life making your own guitars?

You can get a Fleta, Reyes, Torres, Santos, Barbero, Smallman or Dammann copy from this one guy.....and they are really cheap, so why would you need anything else because he has mastered all those styles and you can get them for 2000.00.

Why bother anymore.

And you can compare the projection by watching Youtube and make grand sweeping pronouncements about how modern it al sounds.

Nothing is modern.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 1:47:26
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 840
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

You're wasting your time saying crud like this Stephen, just bang your head
against the wall a couple times. This is typical of everything people do that
there is craft involved in. You're just sniffing too many fumes is all!!!

Just because Joe Blow can follow some Reyes plans and make a piece of MDF
and some Veneer look like a guitar, and even sell it to some Moron doesn't
make it a threat. Get real.

The people who should buy their guitars from a craftsman, to begin with
CAN tell the difference between what you build, and what you worry about being
built by Joe Blow. If they can't they mostly go to Guitar Center anyway.

Perhaps Ferrari felt the same when Ford made the Pinto ...? I bet though the
people who knew better kept buying Ferrari's ...

No you just have workshop blues, which come from too much time working on
stuff, and dwelling too deeply on your thoughts. Get some fresh air. :)

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 2:13:17
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Hi Bill,
I have to finish the three instruments I have going now, restore an oud, do something to a cello and then pack up all the tools. With any luck the container boat that takes my tools and wood to Japan will sink in the open ocean and I will get another job. Yay!

With any luck I will see you before we go, or barring that in an izakaya bar in Japan. You and Jernigan should come visit. We could also meet in Shanghai and paint the town red.....thats a commie joke.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 3:30:02
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I'll say yes... For both musician and maker... Its all economics.

Some times I wonder if people pay $8000 for a guitar because they love it, or if because of the price. There's this populace who always wants guitars which costs as much as a car, and these guys who want it as cheep as they can get it. In short, guys who have the "middle of the road" prices suffer. They are to high for the tight asses, and priced to low for the collectors who don't play the guitar, but love spending money on them.

Anyone who makes art always suffers. The one thing that guitar makers are lucky with is that they don't have to depend on working musicians to buy their instruments. Most working musicians can't afford to buy a lot of instruments, and most of them can't afford high priced instruments.

Art is back of the bus in the U.S, and I don't know if that will ever change.

Here I am working for a university which is an all Steinway school, and every day I wonder, how many of these students will be able to afford a Steinway when they have graduated?

You may just find that things are a lot different in Japan. They still seem to respect people and art there. Your skills we be a bigger value and more appreciated I bet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 4:30:01
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I'm discouraged and as I work everyday at the bench I feel like I'm wasting my time and life. Today anyone can buy the plans ( Reyes Model ) and the tools and be up and running in a few months and make a guitar and sell it. The reason they can do this is because all those who spent years figuring it out discuss these things on the internet and any one with three brain cells left can read it and make a guitar that looks correct.


Stephen, you´re wasting your time and energy. VERY FEW members here will ever understand what you´re saying. You have live it in order to understand. Its not some mental game.
I totally follow you and a lot of my brain activity is going towards thinking about what I should do with my life when I stop building full time. Because I dont think this will last very long.

_____________________________

See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 9:20:43
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Andy Culpepper

quote:

But the Spanish invented "guitar making as a racket". Nowhere will you find more dishonesty in the business of guitar making than with Spanish makers and factories... just take a stroll though Granada and you will find, on the one hand, some the finest classical and flamenco guitars being made anywhere, in the source where the tradition and culture of those instruments was born, and on the other hand, a ton of tourists and even relatively knowledgeable guitarists being supremely scammed into buying factory instruments that they believe were made by a master craftsman.

I remember recently the disappointment that "El Tortuga" felt when everyone on here informed him that his "Barba" was actually straight from Valencia.


You are pretty of topic here, Andy and you show that you dont understand Spanish culture. Things are done in different ways in different places on earth.
Its NOT considered cheating when a guitarmaker buys a guitar from a factory and puts a label into it with his name on it. It IS considered cheating when a builders does so AND signs the label and/or guitar. Do you get the point?
Thats the way things work and not only in guitars here in Spain and its always been so..

And now a bit of history: Why do you think that there are VERY few antigue Spanish made guitars in Spain and a LOT of them in the US?
They were bought for close to nothing in the 60th - 80th by Americans with their at that time very strong currency. They cost NOTHING and the builders were very poor.
Was that fair?
So maybe you can understand why some of the older Spanish builders dont really care about right and wrong. Because in their lives they have worked way to much and earned very little.

_____________________________

See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 9:28:17
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 450
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Sn. Estebanana - that's upsetting. The views expressed in this forum show that the members have attitudes no different to those expressed in the rest of the world. There are those who believe they are the dharma successors to Hernandez et al and have 'the secret' that evades the rest of us, those who are keen to teach and help and those who are keen to learn and want help, and those who combine all three. There is also an olympic amount of internecine enmity and bitching, that is very tiresome for those without the axe to grind, but absolutely normal as in everywhere else in the world!

There is nothing wrong in seeking knowledge and its aquisition is never less than a good thing. The fact that it is easier to obtain is also not wrong - that it took older generations longer to find sources is historical and is not in itself of any value. They would not even have been able to express their views in the way you have just done! I started making (ha ha) in 89 but gave up, as I don't have the passion. I have the 'keen interest' though and this forum has been invaluable on my return, though sometimes hurtful. That's forums.

It's the use of knowledge that is crucial. There is also no substitute for long, slow cooking in experience putting knowledge in contexts. We all know that. High level luthiery, like music where I (don't) make my living professionally is a meritocracy in the end. You might have got away in the 70s with a few pentatonic licks, but now you have to rise above, to be above. The western world is now full of jazz trained kids who can blow me out of the water - it's not their fault, it's what the world has afforded them and they have taken advantage of it. I am now in my deserved position - but I have the long view, born of my experience. Your friend who has a room full of great guitars needs to market himself now to raise himself above the hoi polloi. If his guitars are better then he will be closer to those who want to buy such instruments, as there are more professional musicians these days, not less. It's a new skill we all have to learn.

It is very difficult to make a self-employed living at all these days so don't think that setting up a coffee shop is going to be the answer. Set up a school instead, teaching what you have, to date, for me on this forum, shown yourself to be brilliant at - that is teaching. Japan will love you. You seem to be tempted to take your ball away - that would be a great loss. For me, you have been helpful, courteous, amusing and knowledgeable.

So, to end rambling, guitar making is no more a racket than anything else. It's a meritocracy and anyone whose work is inferior will not be in your market anyway. Maybe you feel this way as your voice isn't heard from the crowd so loudly? It's to be considered. Anyway, I think you should 'man up' and continue. The grass is unlikely to be any greener and very likely will be browner and scrubbyer. There also isn't any grass in Japan in my experience....just roads.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 12:51:42
 
orsonw

Posts: 1402
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to El Burdo

The internet seems to encourage the 'racket'. It's perfect for elaborate and ultimately meaningless descriptions of a guitar in place of real life experience. For example "Just like a Reyes" is a common one.

Before I'd tried or owned good guitars I imagined some kind of holy grail and all the internet hype was enticing and confusing. Now experience of playing good guitars and also knowing what suits me has made everything simpler (though I haven't yet been able to fully to recover from G.A.S.!) I think there are many potential buyers who would be able to discern the 'racket' from the genuine. But I also have a feeling that most high end guitars aren't sold to working/high level flamenco players but to less guitar savvy aficionados, am I wrong?

I would be interested to know how much of luthiers orders come via the internet or international market or is it mainly local players?

(I find in all areas of my life the internet is mostly a big waste of time but it's still worth it for that 5% of pure gold information/ connection I would never have otherwise made.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 13:25:43
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Its NOT considered cheating when a guitarmaker buys a guitar from a factory and puts a label into it with his name on it. It IS considered cheating when a builders does so AND signs the label and/or guitar. Do you get the point?


I know that but most people don't. And you can't deny that there's a lot of murkiness and flat out dishonesty in Spanish guitar making.
I don't think it's off topic to put things in perspective.
I'm sure there are great reasons for the way everything is done but some of it still strikes me personally as wrong.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 13:51:17
 
aarongreen

 

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

It's an interesting topic regarding builders in Spain and guitars of their make and guitars made for them. I certainly don't blame anyone interested in making a living first and foremost, it's a bit ridiculous to expect otherwise. In this business, much like tangible art of any variety (as opposed to music or dance) the artist (or craftsman whatever) who achieves a level of renown, is often worth more after they are gone. Not always but it happens.

In the case of Paulino Bernabe, there is always a question as to what extent he was involved with the guitar bearing his label. I have one from 1970, definitely one of his own build as he had just struck out on his own. It's a monster guitar and every bit the equal of anything I've represented. It's also priced a lot lower than it should IMO due to the fact that he kind of whored his name. He also died a pretty wealthy man from what I hear. All things considered I'd rather go that way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 15:06:23
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3523
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Stephen, it sucks to hear things are this way for you. I respect the art-based artisans like you who put a lot of yourself into your craft. In America, at least, nearly every livelihood is declining, getting worse, getting shafted, exploited, having the screws put to you. Even in my small circle of non-musician friends, recent periods of unemployment or underemployment have been common. Taxes are going up, things are getting more expensive, work is scarce. It looks like we are taking a long ride to lower living standards, and it won't be fun. Obviously, none of the above applies to the rich, who are getting richer.

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 15:39:06
 
tele

Posts: 1404
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Obviously, none of the above applies to the rich, who are getting richer.


Yeah, this is true even in finland where the taxes are about 50% for the rich.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 17:45:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5779
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I think taxes for rich people in Denmark is around 75% total, but even so, they get richer and the poorest get poorer.
There must be something wrong somewhere.

_____________________________

See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 18:14:06
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to estebanana

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 20:31:50
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Whoa!

Well I was bitching about something else, but now that you bring it up.

Anyway I was not even complaining about how much I make, which I assure you is very little for my time. I was complaining about how people feel entitled to start making guitars and throw out a shingle which says 'guitar maker' before they have paid their dues.

Nobody has to pay their dues anymore in order to call themselves something. They just go on the internet and figure a few things out and they become an instant expert. It's bad enough we don't make that much money but to watch other get leg up after you ....never mind.

And plus one to what Anders said about Spanish guitar makers. It's their culture, they started it they can do what they want. The rest of us all the way back to Hauser who copied a Santos are 'Johnny come Latelies'. Those guys lived through lean years and when they got older and ordered some guitars from Valnecia and slipped 2A label in them, that's cool. But amount those older guys there was some pride between a 2A and a hand built guitar. But when Americans do it is bothers me. It bothers me that they build a guitar and all it such and such model. Blech. You there is a such thing as building bench copy of an instrument for someone one, that is different.

I could tell stories about my first teacher who built violin and cello bows. He was a master bench copier. He could copy any French bow reasonably well enough that it would fool experts. But he was honest and he did not try to pass them off as originals, although later dealers did. About twenty years ago I as talking to a bow repairman here who knew my teacher, he complained to me that Mr. Tenney was a liar. He said Tenney would show up with an old French bow like a Pecatte and say that he made. This fellow who has passed away will not be named because the shop he worked in is still around, but Tenney would say "No you're wrong, I did make this." Well when I met the fellow I said t him well he did make those bows, he was really good at copying. I know he made those copies because I sat there watching him do it. There was a huge architectural/artist flat file in Tenney's shop full of rejects where one little thing or another was wrong or the wood had a crack in the interior that was revealed through planing the stick. I used to look at the bows for hours on end.

So Tenney used to go to San Francisco on business and there was a particular dealer who is also gone now that used to wine and dine him real good when he came to town. He would sometimes buy his bows and presumably resell them, as originals or as Tenney bench copies I don't know. I hazard a guess they sometimes passed them as originals. The biggest dealer on the West Coast knew Tenney and asked him to provide him with bench copies of bow frogs to be used as restorations for important French bows when he needed one. He made frogs for Tourte's and Dodd's you name it and they were always top notch. Did the dealer sell them as originals, very likely.

About ten or more yeas ago I was going to go to a bow making workshop, but I was unable to attend at the last minute. I sent a bow along with friend that I had made while in Tenney's shop to ask a question of the person leading the workshop. That person said they did not want to know anything about it after they found out I had copied a Papa Tourte bass bow. I did not find out the reason why my bow was not looked at until last year when my buddy finally told me the real reason is that the person running the workshop was not in favor of helping people make forgeries. Well I never set out to make forgery, I was studying something I had reverence for.

Hilarious how these things can be misconstrued. And here I complain about integrity. It's not my first rodeo when it comes to ethical slime baggery and what your intentions are and how they are perceived. I got to hear plenty f phone conversations and see lots of horse trading in the first shop I work in. The differ is that my teacher stewarded me through it and told not to pay attention to those crooks. He's been gone a long time and I look back on those days as a lot of fun because I was protected from all the sham people, now I have to figure out to ignore them for myself. And if my back would stop hurting and I could play the cello every day it might take my mind off of it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 22:22:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11074
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

I think taxes for rich people in Denmark is around 75% total, but even so, they get richer and the poorest get poorer.
There must be something wrong somewhere.


Well think of the logic. If most of your money you make is taken away ONLY because you make it, how eager are you to spend what you got left?

Complaint of guitar making biz....if you SOLD many more guitars (like had to jack up your prices and limit your pre order list), would you be complaining? Perhaps if internet is not working for you then move to the wilderness where the only people that can afford to buy your fancy home made guitar are a handful of famous players that have to take an off road vehicle through the jungle to find you and sample your work. Now, I dont' mean that you should not have a facebook page to promote that but still, it might work better in the long run.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 22:47:39
 
jlneng

Posts: 118
Joined: Jun. 28 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

Hello All,
A post here from a hobby builder. I started making guitars to see if I could do it. I have no interest in making any money from it as most of my instruments are given away as gifts. I have sold a few to persons that wanted them but whom I did not know well. I seriously doubt if my minimal output of instruments will impact anybody. I know two others that are hoping to build themselves a guitar. I don't believe that either has aspirations of becoming any competition to an established luthier. Just because plans and materials are available to anyone with a credit card, doesn't mean that anyone can build a guitar, a good one anyway...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 3 2013 23:36:54
 
Mordorito

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Aug. 11 2012
From: Delaware, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

ORIGINAL: estebanana


"With any luck the container boat that takes my tools and wood to Japan will sink in the open ocean and I will get another job. Yay!"


...just open up a sushi bar when you get to Japan. It's just fresh fish and seasoned rice, right? Sure the Japanese honor tradition and expertise, and therefore train for years just to perfect the rice, but anyone can search the internet these days and open a sushi bar...

Unfortunately, the loss of tradition and culture is a sad reality in all aspects of a globally connected society.




  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 0:09:56
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

quote:


...just open up a sushi bar when you get to Japan. It's just fresh fish and seasoned rice, right? Sure the Japanese honor tradition and expertise, and therefore train for years just to perfect the rice, but anyone can search the internet these days and open a sushi bar...


That is funny because my girlfriends brother Junji wants to open a bar and have me behind the bar as a giant gaijin curiosity while he cooks. However I am not the Elephant Man, I have my gaijin pride.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 0:18:45
 
Mordorito

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Aug. 11 2012
From: Delaware, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

I seriously think you would enjoy making sushi. It has a similar artisan aspect of building guitars, you get immediate feedback and satisfaction from your customers, but it is more marketable in the long-run. If you were able to get experience in Japan, that would be a competitive advantage for you should you ever leave Japan. It is somewhat hard on the body, though, so this may not be the best alternative .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 0:24:24
 
Leñador

Posts: 5227
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Perhaps if internet is not working for you then move to the wilderness where the only people that can afford to buy your fancy home made guitar are a handful of famous players that have to take an off road vehicle through the jungle to find you and sample your work.


That's something like the Wayne Henderson model of doing it.........how did he get himself in that position? Maybe you could copy that............Or when you get to Japan you could host a japanese tv game show like Marty Friedman!



_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 0:27:05
 
Mordorito

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Aug. 11 2012
From: Delaware, USA

RE: Guitar making is becoming a racket. (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

"......Or when you get to Japan you could host a japanese tv game show like Marty Friedman!"



Yeah, screw sushi...I second that Japanese tv game show host is the way to go!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 4 2013 0:40:25
Page:   [1] 2 3    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2 3    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.1098633 secs.