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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
Not sure how one could play arpeggios because it causes the A finger to stay flexed also
isn't that desirable during an arpeggio ?
I can't move A at all if I keep E flexed on either my right or left hand. (This is typical for us all) There's no way I can use A to do anything if I'm holding a pen top with E.
Working in I/M picado I can feel tension building in my A when I play holding the pen top with E so I think one needs to be very careful with this approach. However the taste of complete freedom given to I and M is very tempting! At the least I think it's good to be able to experience that kind of freedom and so know what to aim for.
(I will let you know how I get on. I am going to experiment with holding an empty paper towel roll; it's light, with greater diameter than a pen top so the E is curled in but not right up, and I can be aware of holding it lightly and not crushing it and it's rough which gives sensory feedback)
PS I remember in Spain a well respected teacher showing me to practice pulgar with a salt seller lightly held in my fingers.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
quote:
Not sure how one could play arpeggios because it causes the A finger to stay flexed also
isn't that desirable during an arpeggio ?
Definitely not. You are restricting the movement of A making it difficult for it to extend and return, or for that matter, ever fully relax. Continuous flexion of C (gripping a pen) means continuous flexion of A due to the way the soft tissue that enables movement of the fingers is wired (M-A-C are entwined and work together). Try playing arpeggios with A and you will be fighting tension all the time. A needs to move freely.
Whether or not locking C like that will help IM alternation is another matter - as Orson says you may be simply replacing one problem with another. But with FD little tricks like this can help as long as they are directed towards solving the problem. It is very difficult to predict these things, no-one can give you a definitive answer to your unique problem.
Lightly touching C on the top of guitar below the strings, for example, can help with these things simply because you are giving your brain more sensory feedback as to 'where everything is' - it aids proprioception. You wouldn't want to be dependent on that though (unless you play lute...) and so the goal of retraining would be to ween yourself off it eg by playing arpeggios first with C on the top, then starting the arpeggio with C on the top and lifting it before arp finishes, then lightly touching C on the top and removing it right before you play the arp - this process over a period of time, not in one session.
Your C is sticking out because of a motor control problem elsewhere (almost certainly either your M or A finger, I am going for the M from what you have said) - its like a counter balance working to the extreme. Your C is not the root of the problem, it is a symptom not the cause. The question is can you, by fixing C in a flexed position like that, address the actual problem?
That may be a question only you can answer, through experimentation.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Blondie#2)
quote:
our C is sticking out because of a motor control problem elsewhere (almost certainly either your M or A finger, I am going for the M from what you have said)
I believe this is true in my case. E extending is a result of me not fully relaxing M before playing I. It's all about control, for example I can play a scale up and down all strings with just M alone, or just I alone at 95 bpm but I/M together can I play 180bpm - no way! In fact it's harder for me to play at 95 bpm with both than just one.
I also agree that many experiments (like the pen top) have helped me even though I needed to know they were just steps on the way and not where I am aiming ultimately.
Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Elie, did you try the thing mentioned in one of the videos in this thread before (the second one from the neurologist):
"while developing your technique again, focus on your right shoulder while you execute the movement"
I personally learned myself some very inefficient 'kind of arpegio', which i try to change and by focussing on my shoulder I notice a clear difference on the process!
I wonder if others will notice something interesting too.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
-AlVal: I’m glad this thread could help, and I hope you overcame the problem with ease … it’s a shame to see such an issue affecting a brilliant player like yourself.
quote:
I can't move A at all if I keep E flexed on either my right or left hand. (This is typical for us all) There's no way I can use A to do anything if I'm holding a pen top with E.
-orsonw: that’s really interesting as my A works just fine when E is flexed or holding a pen I think I made a mistake when I said that A should be flexed during arpeggios because what I meant was that A should be pointing to the sound hole (called half flexed ?) and not completely flexed and pointing up.
So what I was doing is keeping the pen floating over the 4 fingers without any of them locking it tight maybe in a close manner to your method: the paper towel roll … thank you for mentioning it I will experiment with it, it is better than the pen.
on the other hand I admit that I tried to practice with E completely flexed holding some small materials such as a button and surprisingly it felt good even in the AMI arpeggios , but I will quit that right away.
quote:
as Orson says you may be simply replacing one problem with another
quote:
Lightly touching C on the top of guitar below the strings, for example, can help with these things simply because you are giving your brain more sensory feedback as to 'where everything is' - it aids proprioception. You wouldn't want to be dependent on that though
quote:
playing arpeggios first with C on the top, then starting the arpeggio with C on the top and lifting it before arp finishes
-Blondie#2: thank you for your feedback, and for the interesting method … I will try doing that right away.
quote:
The question is can you, by fixing C in a flexed position like that, address the actual problem?
Honestly I feel so. After experimenting and observing I realized that when I try to play arpeggios fast the pinky starts sticking out which is something new I never had it before (at all … looking at my old arpeggio videos the pinky is always curved and working in harmony with the other fingers) so what I feel is that the flexing M and sticking out E are related somehow and ruining the arpeggios … right now I am getting the flexing M slightly under control and hopefully the pinky too
Something worth mentioning is working on arpeggios combinations such as : P I A I M E M A M I , P M E M A I M A E, P E M A I E M A I … and performing scales tirando and appoyando with M - E Working on those is giving my hand and technique a great and direct boost ... I just wish the boost stay permanent magically the E stops sticking out for a while and the M works just fine , so may I say that those might be the key solution to my recovery ? (Hope so)
-Flamencito: using larger muscles right? Well I tried that but it creates some kind of bouncy hands … so im keeping it in mind but hoping to recover without relating to that
Btw mentioning the shoulders when I was young I developed a bad habit of sticking the top of the shoulder to the top of the guitar in order to keep it stable not sure if you can imagine it. Look at the pic from”Jeronimo Maya Bulerias 2005 Barcelona” his shoulder is little bit salient maybe? well in my situation that red line was of 0 length … my shoulder would just lean over the guitar , later I stopepd doing that but still unconsciously doing it sometimes … maybe the wrong posture affected me as well
I really deeply appreciate your thoughts, feedback and time because of this thread I am understanding the problem better and finding ways to solve it . Happy playing :)
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Flamencito)
quote:
"while developing your technique again, focus on your right shoulder while you execute the movement"
I think this can be very helpful. With motor control problems what is sometimes required is not to 'interfere' with our ability to move naturally. People with FD often report that focussing on the problem area simply creates more tension. Taking your attention away while you carry out a movement can be very helpful.
Check out David Leisner's approach. Ok he talks about using larger muscles etc as well (very helpful to kick off retraining if your fingers are badly affected) but that will only get you so far in retraining - you can't use your biceps to play a tremolo!
I think he underplays (or simply doesn't recognise) the value of the above principle is his method.
One thing I used to suggest on the dystonia board was this - play something that gives you problems. Now play it again (better still record/video both) and recite the alphabet backwards whilst you do so.
The point of the above was merely to demonstrate how much we interfere when we have conscious awareness of what our fingers are doing.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
seems the pinky not creating any tension or maybe he's used to it ? but at 1:10 does his pinly look right to you guys ?
Well there is tension there but...
Can you by watching someone else determine what level of tension is in their hand?
Do we all have the same thresholds at which tension becomes a problem and causes injury?
If someone like this has been playing at this level for years and its apparently not affecting them where does that leave us?
When does a tension problem become something far more complicated, like focaldystonia?
These are tricky questions no-one can answer and we can always come up with virtuosos who apparently don't follow good ergonomic guidelines - Vicente's extended and cocked pinky during picado is another example. The discussions are always the same 'he plays like that because he is superhuman and can overcome the problems the tension might create' or 'he could play even better if he didn't have that tension.'
For those reasons, I am not sure how analysing players with apparent tensions helps us. All we can do is be conscious of our own habits, avoid tension as much as we can, and learn to release it quickly where it *is* required.
Having said that, I would always try and use players that seemingly play 'effortlessly' as a model to follow.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Blondie#2)
It is unusual to be able to flex E completely and still be able to move A freely but there are anatomical variations in the hand. Likewise another player's E extending or not is not relevant to me. Obviously it cannot inherently be a 'problem' as many play well with extended E, what is important is to discover what are my individual blocks to progress and extending E is part of my problem because when I don't- I play much better.
I prefer holding a larger paper-towel card roll as my fingers are more in the relaxed position. It helps mainly because I am giving my brain some sensory feeback regarding the little finger because I'm not really tensing it. I never do any technique with E so it is my most untrained finger it makes sense to give it a 'job' and get my brain better connected with it. I have been doing this for a couple of days but so far this is effective, even after removing the roll I am playing better.
As far as focusing away from the hand 'playing with the shoulder' I also find this useful. But then also Eric style micro, hand focused exercises like resting IMA on 4,5,6 string and just relaxing and staying there, maybe progressing to just lifting M from the knuckle and swinging it back to rest on the string(not playing it) and being aware of where there's tension in my hand and relaxing.
In the end I have found many different types of exercises helpful rather than just one magic one. What is more important than specific exercises is their application towards the overall goal of relaxed, free playing without dystonic tension. It is quite an interesting journey! I am grateful for others sharing their experience.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Blondie#2)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Blondie#2
quote:
seems the pinky not creating any tension or maybe he's used to it ? but at 1:10 does his pinly look right to you guys ?
Well there is tension there but...
Can you by watching someone else determine what level of tension is in their hand?
Do we all have the same thresholds at which tension becomes a problem and causes injury?
If someone like this has been playing at this level for years and its apparently not affecting them where does that leave us?
When does a tension problem become something far more complicated, like focaldystonia?
These are tricky questions no-one can answer and we can always come up with virtuosos who apparently don't follow good ergonomic guidelines - Vicente's extended and cocked pinky during picado is another example. The discussions are always the same 'he plays like that because he is superhuman and can overcome the problems the tension might create' or 'he could play even better if he didn't have that tension.'
For those reasons, I am not sure how analysing players with apparent tensions helps us. All we can do is be conscious of our own habits, avoid tension as much as we can, and learn to release it quickly where it *is* required.
Having said that, I would always try and use players that seemingly play 'effortlessly' as a model to follow.
Hey Blondie that was well done, I sure hope that your measured responses help people listen and think. There is so much confusion,self deception and even self aggrandizing mysticism going around that I am very glad you are pitching in with an obviously evolved and clear understanding of body use.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
thank you for the responses guys
actually my reply was delayed because I decided to take a video to address the problems instead of just talking theoretical I tried to make the video short not to bore you, I hope I am not overwhelming you with the text
note that my hand is performing better in the video after I applied the arpeggios exercises involving the pinky, the M is not flexing as it used to . that leaves me with the question : as you can see in the arpeggios the pinky is sticking out and wandering away , is that happening to stop the M from flexing ?
i hope blondie or orsonw or anyone who can help just spend 5 mins to diagnose the problem
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Could be my imagination but it seems you have a different wrist angle in the old video. Could be angle of camera but if the wrist was flatter (as it used to appear) then you are now doing, you would have a better claw grip on the arps. Also you are very much over sound hole now but maybe not as much before? Also with upper arm rested on the side of the guitar rather than lifted.
NOt sure why it would affect pinky but I have seen players like tomatito and Nuñez do the same thing with pinky you are doing so that shouldn't be the issue. What I would do is first slow and grip each note and speed up gradually and find your threshold of control and work below that for a little while. That's what I do if I am not in shape. Sorry I avoided reading most of this thread because the topic of FD makes my fingers tingle just reading.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
i hope blondie or orsonw or anyone who can help just spend 5 mins to diagnose the problem
Well firstly I am not a doctor or more importantly, therapist with expert knowledge treating motor disorders, so what you get from me is opinion, not diagnosis.
Secondly, I was struck by the amount of control you DO have - full blown FD (like I had) is a lot worse than this, trust me.
Having said that, I see your problems.
Your video says
"...seems the fingers are not aiming well on the strings"
Ok, I can see this lack of precision and security. This is typical in onset/early FD and most players try and overcome it by practising harder and longer - they assume their lack of accuracy is due to lack of practice. BIG mistake in these circumstances, all you end up doing is etching the incorrect patterns more firmly into 'muscle memory' (a daft term - muscles do not have any memory, but useful I guess in explaining this). Put it another way, practice makes permanent so you have to get to the root of this.
Firstly you are playing way too fast to do anything about it, but I guess this is just a demo. Would be interesting to see you play arps at slow speeds with camera angle inside hand to really see the chain of events.
Working below threshold - PAMI all working with absolute precision at whatever tempo this requires, is a necessity for starters as I have already said.
"..the pinky is wandering randomly and causing a serious problem"
No it isn't. As I maintain, trying to sort out the pinky is missing the whole point, it is the end of a chain reaction. You need to go to the beginning, not the end. You clearly have motor control issues with other fingers as shown in IM picado, you have problems when pinky isn't doing anything abnormal, so how can you blame the pinky?
Lets look at this another way - lots of players have sticking out pinky with no apparent detrimental affect on technique. Surely if a sticking out pinky automatically causes problems with other fingers then more players would have your issues? Sticking out pinky may look the same in all cases, but in your case I am sure it is an indication of tension and control problems elsewhere. You are fighting to re-establish control where it used to exist.
Ricardo's observation about position change is interesting, not because of where he's coming from (good flamenco position/tone etc) but merely the fact that you have altered your hand position *so much*.
Wanna guess what one of the documented triggers of FD is? I am sure you've discovered that one already! I only say this because you are struggling to identify a 'cause' and you are focussing on pinky suddenly deciding to do its own thing as a 'cause' (BTW, change of position was significant factor in my FD too).
So what do you?
Well you have to become more self aware for starters - that takes a lot of work. You have to work out slowly and methodically to determine what is happening and why. Read my early posts to you about retraining simple combos like I-M at slow speeds, allowing each finger to flex and return before playing the next etc. I think your control of I and M could be 'blurred' and at the heart of this, but that is just a guess.
Have you ever done relaxation exercises where you focus on a body part, tense it up, the release 50% of tension, feel what its like, release 50% of what's left, feel and register what that feels like, another 50% and so on? That's the kind of mental effort and concentration you need to beat this. It really is not just about 'finding the right exercises'.
Proprioceptive exercises like the one I mentioned above (pinky lightly touching top of guitar) will help, but its more about being creative and devising your own approach.
Tried practising with a firmly fitting latex glove? (the type surgeons use). Try it an tell me how it feels.
There is only so much we can do to help you with this on a bulletin board, ideally these things are looked at in person - its a coaching approach - '..try this, how does that feel, where does it get you,' etc,
PS You might want to download this book, 'Intertwined': http://www.focaldystonia.net/bookdvd.html
Farias has helped a lot of people (check out named plaudits on his website) and working in Spain he sees a lot of flamenco guitarists with FD. I think its a good read and really helped my understanding.
Othe things tha helped me:
-retraining in front of a mirror (more sensory input the better) -play very, very lightly at first and gradually increase power/volume - threshold is not just about tempo
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Ellie, I suggest playing much, much simpler and slower arpeggio patterns than those in the video whilst working on finding solutions to your manifestation of focaldystonia. (E.g. one (or two) finger exercises discussed earlier in the thread)
In the video it seems you are fighting your hand. In my experience controlling unwanted movement is not the solution, instead I find ways to eliminate their origin. I can see that your M is still flexing dystonicaly in your tremelo and less obviously also in arpeggio. The solution to FD is not to simply power through and try to stop your M or E contracting- instead one needs to identify why they are in the first place.
Everyone's focaldystonia is different and this is why it is important to develop self-awareness and find your own way. Of course others' ideas and exercises can be helpful but, (I repeat) there is no magic exercise; it is in the application of them to the goal of playing without dystonic contraction (not simply trying to play through/inspite of dystonic contraction- that will just make it worse.)
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
first of all thank you so much for your great responses.
second, I think that i have a full understanding of the problem now. Blondie mentioned here and also on delcamp through his posts the reasons to get FD and in my case I believe they are :
-focusing on the mechanics and not the music -sudden change in technique
which reminds me of Jason Mcguire 's advice that working on technique should be only 1/4 of the time you have to practice the guitar in general, well sometimes i used to practice technique for about 3/4 of the time i have for guitar which hurt me badly as you know.
Guess its the time to be patient , mediate and work slowly in order to achieve a complete changing in my technique that would allow me to be a better player
today I found a nice book that i used to teach my students frequently from called "giuliani 120 right hand studies" it has a nice collection of exercises and they are relatively easy for flamenco players i believe ... but maybe it can make a good start for me.
also I was thinking that as self awareness is so important maybe I need to have more effective structured practicing routine without distractions ... I was thinking that when I start practicing I should keep everything away ( internet , phone , pc , tv ) and just practice with my guitar, a mirror and a metronome in a good sitting posture ( maybe using a Footstool would be a good idea )
yesterday I was working with both hands - with guitar - and - without the guitar - for example doing picado with the left hand and feeling how the pinky works ... well i realized that the pinky also sticks out in the left hand but not as much as the right hand also M-pinky picado in the right hand cause the index to straighten while it doesn't at all in the left hand ... it was a cool experiment
the Model Ideals in Alexander technique is so convincing, its time to seriously Watch my fav guitarists to see how they move, and imitate them.
Ricardo : I really appreciate your reply and inquiry and thank you for the advice. surprisingly I wasn't aware of the change till you mentioned it ... that's why it seems like a must for me to follow a model ideal if i want to survive with my guitar. as for the upper arm which is better ? being rested or lifted ? what I understood was that a flatter wrist with lifted shoulder is better than a crooked wrist with a rested shoulder , hope i got it right.
guitarbuddha : many many thanks , those are great exercises , I will spend a while on them should the second exercise (triple repetition ) be free or rest stroke ... I think free stroke would be more reasonable for now . or maybe experimenting with both ?
Blondie#2 : you've been my hero here . you're right I was playing fast in the video and the reason was to bring up the problem ... nowadays I am playing slowly as you advised me and keeping track of my control and speeds on a paper . I understand that a full blown FD is more worse than what i have ... although i have a problem maybe i exaggerated and created an illusion that caused me depression ...
quote:
you have problems when pinky isn't doing anything abnormal, so how can you blame the pinky?
quote:
I think your control of I and M could be 'blurred' and at the heart of this, but that is just a guess.
very very very truee
I will work on the relaxation exercises that focus on 1 part of the body ... seems quite interesting
you provided a great deal of exercises I have them all written down thank you i will work on them shortly I will get that book of Farias , he seems like a great doctor judging the video on youtube ... he's like a magician
quote:
Tried practising with a firmly fitting latex glove? (the type surgeons use). Try it an tell me how it feels.
I didn't try that but can you give me hints perhaps what to expect ? I will drop by a pharmacy or clinic to get those
quote:
play something that gives you problems. Now play it again (better still record/video both) and recite the alphabet backwards whilst you do so.
mmmmm not an easy task and maybe im not understanding the connection well , more details please ? .... so when i play something with a problem and recite the alphabet backwards the same time ... if i could recite well , does that mean I am less aware of my fingers ? or the opposite
many thanks
orsonw : thank you a lot for the valuable advises
quote:
In the video it seems you are fighting your hand. In my experience controlling unwanted movement is not the solution, instead I find ways to eliminate their origin.
yes so as mentoned I need to start from the beginning not from the end identify why something happening and the origin and the varieties of exercises ... such a great advises
quote:
Everyone's focaldystonia is different and this is why it is important to develop self-awareness and find your own way
you're so right
btw the paper-towel paper method is an interesting method worth trying for the reason you mentioned "giving sensory feedback regarding the little finger "
thank you again guys , this thread is like a gold mine for me
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Hey Elie,
Your local doctor/psychiatrist/guitarist coming in here for some input. You remember my struggles with the pinky sticking out? Well, I first tried the rubber bands, then I tried holding coins in-between all of my fingers. Those things actually helped, but what helped the most was that I spent about 6 months playing SUPER SLOW and just doing simple arpeggio patterns like ami or pimami. This super slow practice over 6 months was what helped me the most. What I was doing was just focusing on getting my whole hand to be relaxed, and looking at my fingers in a mirror. After doing this for a few days, I felt my hand was SO SUPERBLY relaxed, I was amazed! The reason why my pinky used to stick out was because of bad teaching I had received saying that "flamenco guitarists must have their pinky finger stick out while doing any technique". I didn't used to do that before I started taking lessons with that thinking being projected. When I was "taught" that, I then started making a conscious effort to purposefully stick out the pinky when doing anything. It was not comfortable, but I was finally able to make it stick out. However, that was not the natural thing for it to do, and thus when I would play arpeggios, it would look like a scorpion's tail - it would be sticking out and flexing in with arpeggios. Look here starting at 0:33 of the video:
(don't forget to like the video and subscribe to my channel )
I didn't like the way that looked, and I didn't like the way it felt either. I would feel there was tension in my hand, and when I spent the time to try to consciously relax my hand and go SUPER slow, it worked! Notice the arpeggios I was doing in the video above were not even fast, and my pinky was sticking out because I had learned to stick it out on purpose while doing any technique.
Then I had my "pinky reforming period" when I became interested in doing five finger arpeggios. Remember that?
Well guess what - those five-finger arpeggios helped me a lot man! Those arpeggios along with using my pinky to do tremolo, picado, etc. I involved my pinky in all techniques and went super slow and took several months to take things up to speed.
And now, here is what my right hand looks like:
You can see that the pinky is moving much more naturally, but that when I push it with tempos, it still likes to jump out.
Bottom line: You can do it, but there are sacrifices to be made - time, effort, etc.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
quote:
Tried practising with a firmly fitting latex glove? (the type surgeons use). Try it an tell me how it feels.
I didn't try that but can you give me hints perhaps what to expect ?
Well That kind of spoils the surprise :-)
Seriously though - I am trying to coach you towards finding a solution. No point me saying 'do this and it will feel like that'. What happens if it makes no difference or you feel different to what I say? Gets you nowhere. I am encouraging you to try little things, if they get an effect that is useful I can use that to point you somewhere else. No point me giving you 100 things to do/try with full explanations of the outcome in each case etc, when 99 of them will waste your time and mine. As already said, everyone's FD is, and FEELS, different.
The alphabet thing was just purely to distract you, and get you concentrating on something else. You might be surprised at what your fingers do when you are LESS concious of them and exerting LESS concious control. Try it.
Like I said, with FD it is quite normal to get worse symptoms the more you concentrate on the affected part, hence concentrating on your shoulder/back etc ''takes the pressure off'. Alphabet backwards is even harder to do, you really have to concentrate (until you have learned it of course, then this will no longer work) and part of your brain will be screaming at you to concentrate on your fingers.
I was just interested to see how well your fingers work when you are not consciously trying to control them (and trying to 'fix' your problem by - as you saw it- inhibiting the pinky).
PS I used Giuliani 120 RH studies to retrain to. Good idea - lots of different combos (more than you come across in flamenco) - and its not 'music' - just simply chords in left hand. That's exactly what you need in early retraining, no repertoire. I can recommend the Christohper Berg edition (Mel Bay) as it is well laid out, easy to read and Berg has substituted a lot of advanced patterns that appear in the CG repertoire after it was written (eg Villa Lobos, Barrios), and taken out repetition.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elie
guitarbuddha : many many thanks , those are great exercises , I will spend a while on them should the second exercise (triple repetition ) be free or rest stroke ... I think free stroke would be more reasonable for now . or maybe experimenting with both ?
Thats right this excercise is aimed at just downstroke rasg and free strokes. Also experimenting is the way, be creative play around be light hearted and have fun with your mistakes.
I will add some note with left hand and do a video tomorrow night to try and better explain the exercise. It is really a strategy for working on any tricky phrase or passage, maybe try and demonstrate that with the Villa Lobos Blondie suggested.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
Ricardo : I really appreciate your reply and inquiry and thank you for the advice. surprisingly I wasn't aware of the change till you mentioned it ... that's why it seems like a must for me to follow a model ideal if i want to survive with my guitar. as for the upper arm which is better ? being rested or lifted ? what I understood was that a flatter wrist with lifted shoulder is better than a crooked wrist with a rested shoulder , hope i got it right
Don't be afraid to move your arm around when playing..often doing picados we must lift the arm to maintain the proper angle of attack. Playing pulgar changes things too. All I can say is superficially, what you USED to be doing looked and sounded fine vs what you got going on now. All the great flamenco players angle the wrist like you WERE doing before, and often rest the arm on the body. But that won't make or break technique alone (see my avatar?). I can play the same on a small kid guitar as on a normal size instrument, without feeling a need to rest my arm on anything. I agree with others you will have to slow down and get comfortable again.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
ok here is the glove well I haven't played for two days and today is the third and i took this video
at first i did some picado passages and then at 0:20 i rested my thumb on the fifth string and that allowed me to go faster and sometimes it doesn't cause the pinky to stick out ... so i guess the thumb has a role too and I need to investigate seems i have an interesting brain
at 0:25 : is that the exercise you want me to do guitarbuddha ?
at 0:50 : my cool i-pinky picado ... faster than the I-M picado then some arpeggios
at the end some pxami arpeggios
i was thinking that some exercises involving I M and X might be beneficial for example : I M I M X I M I M X ....
hey doctor I surely remember your struggle and always relate to your thread
I am starting to do the same thing ... playing slow and in-front of a mirror trying and hoping to make everything relaxed (lol I liked and subscribed , but something worth mentioning is that as far as i remember i subscribed to you about 3 times and now i am able to click the subscribe button again)
and now talking about the pinky I am also trying to use it in all techniques, yesterday i had a conversation with my classical teacher and I was like " why don't you teach students to play with the pinky " ... he said training the pinky requires double the time the other fingers need and the purpose from training it is to support the A mainly ... but he encouraged me to train it
thank you for your encouraging and inspiring response and i am so happy for you achieving those great results :D Blondie#2
quote:
Seriously though - I am trying to coach you towards finding a solution.
I know that and I really appreciate it and I am so thankful to your efforts maybe i sound pushy or caress-less sometimes I am really trying everything you're saying so far except for the alphabet didn't really try it yet , regarding this matter I was thinking of playing while reading music notations that might distract me somehow ( i think ..) but I understand the point and its quite interesting .. I will work on it tomorrow and record what happens
i am finding the Giuliani 120 RH studies so beneficial ... they give you that nice feeling in your hand like its a one block not sure how to describe it
but i have a question please ... you said that : "a series of individual movements that the brain links together overtime so that they can eventually happen without our conscious control over each element." and then in FD those movements that form a 'software' happen to have some errors and flaws which create a glitchy software
my question is when someone work slowly , recover and build a new software correctly ... will the old one be overwritten completely ? I mean what if a single bug triggered that old software and brought it back destroying the new software entirely ? is that possible ?
I think the answer lays in Jason W. Solomon 's article
EDIT almost forgot to mention :
actually the glove made me feel good ... I think it made my fingers close to each other somehow united them it made me feel them more and control more perhaps and maybe created some kind of resistance bringing back the pinky when it sticks out
should i practice with it frequently ?
Ricardo
quote:
Don't be afraid to move your arm around when playing..often doing picados we must lift the arm to maintain the proper angle of attack. Playing pulgar changes things too. All I can say is superficially, what you USED to be doing looked and sounded fine vs what you got going on now. All the great flamenco players angle the wrist like you WERE doing before, and often rest the arm on the body. But that won't make or break technique alone (see my avatar?)
I understand you well . the guitar sizes are the same while some people are short and the other are tall .. some have short fingers while the others have longs ones. what matters is the technique and the posture that allowes you achieve the best thank you
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
stion is when someone work slowly , recover and build a new software correctly ... will the old one be overwritten completely ? I mean what if a single bug triggered that old software and brought it back destroying the new software entirely ? is that possible ?
Firstly yes, the idea is to retrain your fingers to work independently again and rebuild a new 'set of instructions' for how they work together in different combinations/patterns. The more carefully you do this, the weaker the faulty pattern becomes over time.
Is it possible to have a 'bug' again? Yes of course. The brain is constantly adapting and tweaking according to stimuli received. The same plasticity that enables us to improve motor skills can leave us susceptible to errors, nothing is fixed. However, having FD certainly teaches you to be cafeful and not take your control for granted...
quote:
actually the glove made me feel good ... I think it made my fingers close to each other somehow united them it made me feel them more and control more perhaps and maybe created some kind of resistance bringing back the pinky when it sticks out
should i practice with it frequently ?
Ok, well I'm glad it felt good. The glove is really a sensory trick, an idea from Nancy Byl. Some people find they can play virtually without symptoms when they wear one, but its not really a 'cure' and the postive effects can wear off with continued use.
Look at it this way - with FD your wiring is messed up, control of different fingers is blurred. Wearing a latex glove means your hand is completely enveloped and in contact right across the skin - a flood of tactile sensory input that wasn't there before that your brain can use to help distinguish fingers and 'where everything is'.
Should you practice with it frequently? Well I would suggest you use it as an 'awareness raising' tool. If you find it helps you control, play with it for ten minutes paying close attention to how it feels, then take it off and visualise/feel it still being there in contact with your hand. This is about stimulating your awareness and enriching your sensory input when you practice, because the more sensory input and focus you throw at this, the better quality the retraining.
Another idea is to isolate problem areas eg cut off the fingers of A and C (leaving I and M gloved) - now play IM picado and see if pinky curls as much. Or cut off I and A, whatever...
These are things to play with.
If you do not really feel a benefit when you wear the glove, forget all the above, its not a tool you can use.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
many thanks again Blondie#2 ,
the glove trick is very logical I will follow your directions
I came across interesting stuff today:
-as you saw in my first video, i kinda have some space between the I-M while performing the picado and it seems that if I eliminate this space by using (or without) a coin, my hand would perform relatively better. maybe the way each finger feel the one beside it give a secure feeling.
-today I could spot a problem after watching "William Kanengiser - Effortless Classical Guitar" he was talking about playing as 'touch, press, play and relax' = 'plant and relax' and how his finger is bouncing back to the string he already played without bringing it back he's emptying the energy out the finger so it is returning back all by it self. well regarding this matter my M is not behaving well, it seems during I-M picado the I is bouncing back but the M is staying in it's place not extending back well .. so this need some time to be fixed
I am still not able to do the alphabet trick well ... the pinky is sticking out , im kinda still not able to take my attention away ... maybe that implies a poor self-awareness. i hope i can improve this
but now I totally understand that I should enter the retraining and relearning mode to cure my issues. it seems I had many issues since long time but I just didn't feel it or it didn't interfere as much as its doing now
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Elie, it is so good that you are clearly feeling so much better about what you are experiencing.
As a long time sufferer of RSI I know that nothing is worse than being stuck in a rut. You have lots of confusion ahead but that is all because you are available to learning and becoming more attuned to your body.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
Hi Elie,
quote:
actually the glove made me feel good ... I think it made my fingers close to each other somehow united them it made me feel them more and control more perhaps
I haven't read all the information posted here (good stuff, btw) but I noticed your comment and I want to say that I think this should always be your goal. In addition to keeping the fingers close to the strings, I think it's best to keep them close together. The idea is to keep your hand relaxed and to feel the sides of your fingers brushing against each other.
I think this is one of those counter-intuitive things about guitar playing. If you had to do some kind of hard work with your upper body (for example, repairing a motor while standing under the car), you might spread your feet at some point in order to keep your balance as you put your back into it. Similarly, when you anticipate some kind of difficult technique on the guitar, you might have a tendency to separate the fingers of your right hand, as if you were going to try to pick up a bigger and heavier object. This is what you want to avoid, because there is not really much variation in the "size" and "weight" of guitar techniques.
Of course, when I say "anticipate some kind of difficult technique," that's where the answer probably lies, because the problem may be your perception of the difficulty of a technique. I've seen your videos and it looks like you have plenty of strength and speed.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
thank you guys
guitarbuddha
quote:
You have lots of confusion ahead but that is all because you are available to learning and becoming more attuned to your body.
Couldn't say it any better! confusion ahead and in my head about my playing. being attuned to my body is something i never thought of before but I am experiencing and feeling it now
hope your RSI issues are completely cured.
NormanKliman
it surprises me how no one of my former teachers alerted me to that problem (having a space between my I-M). actually I was aware of it, but never considered it as a problem till now, keeping the fingers side by side really creates more optimized movements.
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
just wanted to share an exercises that i came up with and it seems beneficial to relearn picado : basically its just playing rest stroke with the M steady with the tempo beat and then adding strokes with the other finger I but keeping the M steady with the beat
something like this:
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RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to orsonw)
quote:
How has the problem become? better?
hey thank you mate ... well I am discovering new things everyday, so I think the answer is yes as i am more ware of the problem but my problem nowadays is lacking of time .... im playing about 1h:30min every day but I would like to play up to 4 or 5 to solve this
quote:
eg i m i m i m i m , or "im" together and then a, or i and then "ma" together
quote:
on my i finger proximal interphalangeal joint to put a body awareness of the joint and also the tape helps to stop the joint from flexing (some tape is harder in texture than the other).
using double fingers together ... isolation and double isolation ... Great idea so mmm using the tape on 1 join to improve awareness very nice , thank you for mentioning these :)
quote:
I've had a i finger problem since about jan/feb last year,
care to share your problem ?
well for now it seems that if I maintain the pinky and the A relaxed and slightly curved (the shape I want to achieve) during picado ... the M stops from extending back well . I mean in appoyando (the walking & planting style) the M push the string and when going back to play again ... there is some resistance, so basically i am training it now to perform well
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From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Thoughts on Technique and Some I... (in reply to Elie)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elie im playing about 1h:30min every day but I would like to play up to 4 or 5 to solve this
using double fingers together ... isolation and double isolation ... Great idea so mmm using the tape on 1 join to improve awareness very nice , thank you for mentioning these :)
well for now it seems that if I maintain the pinky and the A relaxed and slightly curved (the shape I want to achieve) during picado ... the M stops from extending back well . I mean in appoyando (the walking & planting style) the M push the string and when going back to play again ... there is some resistance, so basically i am training it now to perform well
the thing is that you can actually play arpg and picados.. I couldn't do any arpg at all. if i did a PIMA or PAMI.. my i finger would be curled. and would have to extend from that curled position to strike the string again. I could not do ami ami ami ami arpgs.. it has took me 1 year to be able to play PIMAMI again in slow tempo.. I couldn't do picado too.. i would curl.. kinda like how you would raise your knee up to the level of your hips and you foot won't go down properly..
it'll take time.. I don't think it's focaldystonia. I think fd is a problem that is almost unsolvable. we just have really bad habits trained into us by ourselved.
my i finger still shakes back and forth a little when I play arpgs.. I think it's cuz I still can't relax it enough..
I'm still trying and I hope you have more luck. My playing is about where I was 2 years ago.. about 1 year ago from when my problem started.
I hope with determination and a little luck and smiles from God.. we'll all be able to recover.
Printable Version
i will work on them shortly 
Well, I first tried the rubber bands, then I tried holding coins in-between all of my fingers. Those things actually helped, but what helped the most was that I spent about 6 months playing SUPER SLOW and just doing simple arpeggio patterns like ami or pimami. This super slow practice over 6 months was what helped me the most. What I was doing was just focusing on getting my whole hand to be relaxed, and looking at my fingers in a mirror. After doing this for a few days, I felt my hand was SO SUPERBLY relaxed, I was amazed! The reason why my pinky used to stick out was because of bad teaching I had received saying that "flamenco guitarists must have their pinky finger stick out while doing any technique". I didn't used to do that before I started taking lessons with that thinking being projected. When I was "taught" that, I then started making a conscious effort to purposefully stick out the pinky when doing anything. It was not comfortable, but I was finally able to make it stick out. However, that was not the natural thing for it to do, and thus when I would play arpeggios, it would look like a scorpion's tail - it would be sticking out and flexing in with arpeggios. Look here starting at 0:33 of the video: 
then some arpeggios 
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