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Guitar prices
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 Guitar prices
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The thread about the “ultimate Conde” made me think and made me rethink as well.
Its about an all shiny most probably factory built and plastic lacquered Conde Hermanos guitar with the name of some famous dude. (Sorry Al, but thats what you are in my world) The price of the guitar is over 11000,-€ . Read euros, not pesetas and not even yankee dolares.
Sole, my late wife showed me many things and I´m in process of not forgetting what I was taught indirectly. Its a difficult and slow process because I have to turn everything around many times. But its an extremely interesting process:
My first thoughts, which is my way of thinking. The way I´ve always been:
If someone came to my workshop with this Al Conde guitar, my thoughts would be that the person was an idiot.. I wouldn´t tell him so but just treat him kindly and thinking why did you pay this money for that guitar?..
But, and here comes second thoughts, which have been through the filter. I was bracing a guitar while was thinking. Its a nice slow process, so its good for thinking:
The idiot is me and not the guy who bought the Al Conde guitar. Basically I dont care about what people do with their money and I dont care about overhyped guitars, so why should I think the buyer was an idiot? Its just jelousy (spell) I´m jelous because this (most probably) factory made guitar costs 11000+ € and my guitars, which are all handmade, handpolished and made in the old traditional way only cost 3000,-€. (some even costs 2000,-€)
I know very well how our world funcions. I dont like it, but I know and I accept that its where I have to live and funcion. I´m also being told by everyone not being a client or a possible client that my prices are way to low...
So why are they to low? Because of fear. Because I´m afraid. Afraid of not selling enough. So I struggle, work to much in order to make enough guitars to survive. I´m afraid of not being able to continue doing what I like doing. I´m afraid of that cruel world out there that I dont like.
So fear shows up in my proud little mind and gets converted into being angry. And since its always been easyer to be angry at someone else, I end up getting angry at Conde Hermanos and I even end up believing that the buyer of the Al Conde guitar is an idiot, when he´s just a guy with enough money to buy a dream.
Thats totally absurd and I feel completely stupid. Fortunately the solution is easy and I can hear Sole´s voice when I think this. I shouldnt care about what the others do. Its their business. I should care about myself. Do what I think is right and put the prices on my guitars that I find to be right... So this I will do very soon.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Nov. 15 2012 9:52:36
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rogeliocan
Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Thanks for sharing, good read.
Well said, 'buying a dream'. Makes you realize that people are not just buying 'guitars'. It kind of make sense since for 90% of them it is about 20% ability to play well and 80% desire (dream) to play well.
You have to remember also that a lot of people have a lot of money and a lot of them will pay more for the same things. Meaning they will buy a product from an expensive shop on an expensive strip that you could buy cheaper somewhere else. So they too are buying more then just a 'product', they are buying the shopping experience and the 'I can afford to walk on this trip and buy from it'.
Some of the people involved in the Conde guitar business were good luthiers and were originally selling good guitars, and I am sure some still are today. But over time they also got people with good business sense in that shop, I feel Felipe is such a person. And I also feel, not founded on any evidence, that they had a business model, that 'hey, Anders, I will you 1000EU extra for your top guitars if you put our label on it, and then I will make an extra 2000EU with it.' Why not if it is a good guitar and I can sell it.
So you went through a good thinking process, but what will you do with it? When I started my first business, I was told that you had to surround yourself with people who had a different skill set then your own, sounds obvious but not that easy to do. But I think you hit a good point that is worth thinking about, are you only selling guitars? Than, that is just wood and glue; dreams are priceless.
Note. I don't think that guitars are just wood and glue, some are of course, it was just a way to compare then to a dream.
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Date Nov. 15 2012 11:02:14
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britguy
Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
So why are they to low? Because of fear. Because I´m afraid. Afraid of not selling enough.
I understand, and sympathize, Anders.
'Pricing' ones work has to be one of the most difficult decisions for any self-employed business person, especially so in the creative arts and craftsman fields, where there are so many intangible qualitites to be factored into the pricing equation.
How to price?
What am I selling? : Time; materials; skills, experience; reputation; marketing effort; and , of course, the quality of the final product! (Have I missed a few?).
How does one put a price on all of that?
And, even before going through this excersize, there is the BIG question: "What do I need to earn to support the kind of lifestyle I would like to live?". And this is where the big differences may come into play. Some of us may be satisfied with a more basic lifestyle than others. . .
Many years ago, when I took the plunge and started off in business for myself (architectural photography) I went through this same agony of 'what to charge'. And, like Anders, felt I should be charging more. Eventually, I bit the bullet and upped my prices significantly to what I felt ; "the market will bear". Strangely; I did not lose any clients, and within a couple of years, actually increased my business, and net income.
Lesson: Don't be afraid to price yourself where you think you deserve to be. . .
_____________________________
Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
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Date Nov. 15 2012 13:15:51
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rogeliocan
Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to rombsix)
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quote:
People - buy your Eliasson's before it's too late!
Funny, I was thinking that as I was writing.
It's all about perception isn't it. And Escribano is right saying it's tough to switch segments, the new segment idea (Lexus) is good thought.
Us consumers, at least a good number of us, actually think like that. You put 2 guitars in front of me, one at $1000, the other at $3000, if I can afford it I will take the $3000 just because I perceive that it should (and I think 'will') be better (even if they are the same guitars with minimal differences). If I sit down to try them, my brain will already be expecting the expensive one to be better and will affect my judgement, to justify my 'want': a better guitar... .which in the consumer mind often equates to a more expensive guitar.
It's totally wrong but that's what happens. I am no expert at this stuff, just my opinion.
That thread, a few weeks ago, with some guitarist advertising, guitars made with his name (DelMonte???), did exactly that, segmentation..... segment 2, for people with cash$$$$$.
Hate to bring that up but Andalucia Guitar is another, but different, example of marketing and selling guitars way above their value. You have to accept the fact they did a good selling job (and at the same time not), but we don't know how viable they will be.
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Date Nov. 15 2012 13:19:35
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Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
So fear shows up in my proud little mind and gets converted into being angry. And since its always been easyer to be angry at someone else, I end up getting angry at Conde Hermanos and I even end up believing that the buyer of the Al Conde guitar is an idiot, when he´s just a guy with enough money to buy a dream.
I don't want to hurt any feelings or make things worse, but you could explore this further internally to find peace. Fear like this stems from ego which is constructed over top of insecurity. IMO as I look at independent luthiers, all with the same chip on the shoulder, can't help but fixate on the conde issue or the factory issue. If these prejudices were simply dropped, the constant bad mouthing and judgment and criticism, the internal anger when the name appears at top of a thread (NO NOT THEM AGAIN!!!!), a new peace will be found. I have been saying for YEARS... instead of boast how much better a personal build will ever be, simply believe inside and claim that a personal guitar is simply EXACTLY SAME AS GOOD AS any conde...no better no worse. It might mean simply BUILDING ONE to prove it to ones self and the world or whatever, but for sure it would put an end to the internal conflict and hate. No more question marks inside (is my guitar holding up? can I charge more?), the simple answer is "yes" and soon independent builders find themselves with waiting list and no choice but to bump price and see their own makes going up and up resale, etc. I feel this is why the apprentice ship thing has been so successful with guitar building...you go from "yes I did build a ramiriz/barbero/conde/reyes....and now here is MY guitar..." and it always moves upward from there.
About Al di guitar...I don't look at it as endorsement CONDE NEEDS...they are MUCH bigger than Al di and in fact al bought his faustino stock as any other flamenco player from the shop in the 80s. There was never a need for signature models, and no need now...it's obviously only for variety or curious fun they are doing it.... and just like Van Halen frankenstein strat, they will be limited and therefore much more collectable and expensive. It's nothing to loose sleep about.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Nov. 15 2012 14:42:53
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sig
Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders,
I can fully understand your anger about Conde but its a bit misplaced. Many people purchase based on percieved value and name not always on the hard work one puts into his creations. I've played one of your instruments and its fantastic, no doubt, but until you get a couple into the hands of a world class players, you may not be able to sell it for more than you are today. Is it worth more? Hard to say, worth more than what? Based on the quality of construction and your attention to detail and efforts that goes into one of your guitars, yes worth every penny and probably more. I'm self employed and I can't waste precious time and energy worrying about what someone else is doing. If I take care of my clients everyday to the best of my ability I can rest assured they will take care of me. I may not make a fortune, but thats not my goal only to lead a good life and try and be happy and satisfied.
I have a close relative who also builds classical/flamenco guitars and has a lengthy waiting list. His instuments sometimes sell in the 10-15K range retail. Why? Who really knows, perception of value, years of experience, innovative designs and builds. Lots of things I suppose plus they are great instruments. Are they greater than yours? I've played both and in my feeble mind yours are just as good. For the average player, why would I spend thousands more for the competition's guitar? Not sure other than as an investment, for the name, the perception of value possibly. Are they an idiot for spending big money on a dream? No, not in my mind, heck its their dream, why not go big...
There is no doubt in my mind that you are one of the top builders today and you should listen to Sole's voice, she is right. Don't worry what others are doing, only focus on what you do best and always strive to understand that you have a niche much like Conde and maybe one day people will line up to by an Eliasson guitar!
Sig--
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Date Nov. 15 2012 17:22:12
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders - your initial post was so well said. It seems like all around us in this world things are valued so differently. Some fairly, some over valued and some under valued.
For me, what Ricardo, yourself, and others said that is most practical is that part about association - name association. Obviously, Conde has been able to successfully associate their product with some big names much to their financial success.
Anders - you are a great player in your own right. But I think having more videos of well known players playing your guitars would create that much more demand and interest and a pathway to longer wait lists, higher prices and you getting more for your hard work.
I wouldn't be surprised if great players are frustrated at the numbers of luthiers who approach them wanting a 2 min video of them playing their guitar, since many seem to then overhype that video, but sh*t, it seems to work in almost every case.
And I think people pine for certain guitars not just for the dream, and to obtain a coveted thing, but because they see their heros playing the guitars and think that having a guitar of the same make will make them sound more like their hero. "I'll have a bit of Paco's tone if I have a Conde negra like his". There's logic to that thinking..but the reality as we all know is another thing.
But as a business practice, it's not ingenuous to sell guitars at high prices if there's demand, and creating the demand - and sustaining it! - is all about integrity. Which can be frustrating to witness the Conde phenomenom in light of the allegations about their integrity. But if your guitars are really great, and well known players concur, it seems that that is the best route to increased demand.
I mean, would Reyes Sr. guitars really be $25k if not for Vicente?
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Date Nov. 15 2012 17:52:29
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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The simple difference is that Conde' is a commercial trade name and Anders is making personal guitars. Conde' as a brand name has nothing to do with flamenco. To be flamenco means you have a amount independence, self style, you think for yourself and you don't have to be or buy into brands to understand yourself.
Branding really has nothing to do with flamenco. The problem is how do you as an artist "package" themselves to keep the integrity and concentration they need to make good art, while at the same time get word out that you value what you do and command proper compensation.
And I think letting the Conde' thing go is a good idea, but the problem there is that there are a lot of bad guitars Conde or not and if one disses a Conde' you get labeled a sour Conde' bashing luthier. It's not really like that, it was just a lackluster guitar.
Conde's are not the paradigm of flamenco sound, the idea that a luther has to make one to prove to themselves that they are worthy is silly. From the outside it might look like a luthier needs to make a Conde', but from the inside I can say it's not a good idea. As an independent luther you are looking to make an independent sound, not copy a brand name sound. If that was your aim you should have guitars made by Sanchis and paste your label into them.
Here's the deal, if you want flamenco guitar making to go in a direction of continuing to develop as an art of those who strive to be independent and brave enough like Anders to search out their own sound, then patronize Anders and others like him. If you want to get a Conde' get a Conde', but realize there is an element of Brand Identification mind set that is at odds with those who are working to be create personal sounds.
Being at odds with the world of branding is a good thing in my opinion, it sets you apart. It means those who patronize you and and your work are strong enough personally to see beyond branding. It is also the reason why guys like Anders and I don't copy the guitars of others. We study the guitar of others and process this information internally and use it in our own instruments. It is not about our egos, it is about honoring the way we were taught. We were taught to "read" the guitars made by good makers and extract that which strikes us as good and right in the guitars of the masters, then figure out how this can be used in our own work. It is about honoring our teachers who stove to be independent; to go backwards and pander to branding would really dishonor everything they stand for. When you are connected to a rare tradition and have an artistic lineage that you value it is not really an option to make copies of famous brands. Personally I would rather change the way I make money, stop making guitars, than copy the cheap guitars made in factories. I'm pretty sure Anders is committed to the same ideals. To hold and carry out ideals in life is often painful and that is just life. We all have to forebear this pain in some way or other when making art or making music.
It is not fun to stand on the firing line. If one chooses to make guitars you have to decide and come to agreement with yourself about how you are going to deal with the branding issue. No other person can dictate to you how to do this because it is very personal. And in the end so what if a guitar maker gets angry about branding? Everyone should try to make a guitar and come to face these problems. Then guitar players might cut guitar makers some slack. We make them and put them out there and the players choose what they like.
That is the other side of the coin.
My personal thought about the Sanchis guitars et. al that are cheap. I like that there are good inexpensive guitars to be had. There was a time not long ago when you had to pay much much more for the same amount of sound in a guitar and for someone who does not have a lot of money I think it is a positive thing they can get a guitar to play that will give them satisfaction. The more inexpensive guitars give players chance to develop and grow and try different guitars as a way of learning who they are as musicians.
For some people it is important to have a more personal connection to where the guitar came from and for others it is not important at all. Some players see guitar making quite dispassionately, others are fascinated and steep themselves in the process and develop personal professional relationships with certain makers. There is room for both these ideas and everything in between. Depending on how much you can afford today you can get pretty much a good guitar at any price range. If you decide to patronize the unbranded, you are a saint in my book.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Nov. 15 2012 19:01:08
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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To me it reads as if Anders was pissed off by the hollow associating that stands behind a marketing image often a times.
Something so stubbornly thoughtless in respect of brand veneration, as on the other hand in respect of ignoring empirics / reckognizing lesser reputatet but equally or better performing products.
While he is not specifcally aiming at Conde, I have been grumbling about consumer blindness concerning a highly reputated maker of classical guitars. ... And about certain brands of car manufactory, and shoes, and ice cream, and ... you get my drift.
It really is incredible how sheepish we are, in marketing aspects and even world view.
So much that the masters of marketing do feel provoked every other time to throw some utmost of rubbish on the market and let it rocket up into top ranks sales. And to cry from laughter when they see hundreds of millions following what they just dictated to them through your choice of media.
And even when possibly rather aware, will you be catching yourself as trivially processing time and again. Seeing how your brain cheats your senses to almost any predefined direction / expectation, how groundless ever that be.
We have had chimpansee drawings praised as artstic works by experts on art shows.
How about some fine luthier guitars in the cheap shelves of guitar center, branded as "Woolworth"?
I´d love to see what a secuirty / hidden camera would be fetching.
Nearly 100% of a denaturalized everyday life is piped by pretension / prestige.
( I remember Costa Rican Tico youth bypassing delicious and cheap fresh squash and going for expensive but definitly fashionable sherbet drinks in fast food inns.)
Puppet´s anticipation majorly overruling physical senses, absurd for what should rather perform as rational human being.
Some little steps have been introduced to dampen peaking deformity / foolishness. Like the re-introduction of school uniforms for instance, and hopefully we´ll be seeing some more trends that could retour the contemporary us to somewhat empirical adequacy.
Anyone recall the times when there was not much more written on packages than e.g. "Flour" or "Sugar"?
Crazy times of just trusting one´s senses, weren´t they.
Ruphus
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Date Nov. 15 2012 19:12:15
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: Guitar prices (in reply to changue)
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No offense to anyone here who has bought this guitar or that, for big money or small, but if we really wanted to help Stephen, Anders and others here who make great guitar that cost more than the cheap stuff, maybe we'd have an open discussion about what motivated certain choices for those of us who have bought many guitars.
And I'm not trying to be a dick in separating the men from the boys, but I think the key info is found in players who have bought at least three $2k (US) or more guitars. Maybe the price is $3k. I dunno.
But fact is, most people don't buy concert level guitars right off the bat. You work up to it. And these great luthiers here make concert guitars of that price range. Suffice to say, you can't get a Conde for less than $4k.
So if there were a thread where guys chronicled their guitar choices, maybe it would be informative. As awesome as it is to get posts from people praising the *sounds* of these guitars from afar, while only buying Castillo, Sanchis, Navarro, etc, fact is, it's a leap to pay $3k and up, and if you're never going to go there, all the praise in the world doesn't help Stephen, Anders, etc pay their rent.
Granted, Stephen has said 'you make your own individual guitar, with the qualities you like (as a maker), and put it in the marketplace'. So maybe it's not helpful to hear from players what they like and don't like.
But I can say that personally, price played (and still does) a big part in my decision. And over the years, I have come to now see the wisdom in stretching yourself financially to get that $5 - 10k guitar if it will really make the difference. (Not that I have that guitar!)
I dunno..maybe I'm over reaching here..
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Date Nov. 15 2012 20:51:09
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