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rombsix

Posts: 7603
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Bouncing hand during picado 



I feel that my hand bounces too much when doing picado, and that the bouncing slows me down. Does this make sense?

The video was meant to go to Orhan, but I might as well use the same one here since making a new one isn't going to show much new ideas.

I see Paco de Lucia, JG, Grisha, etc. doing picado and I can't see their hand move/bounce with each stroke.

Any advice?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 1:35:36
 
kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

maybe beacuse your arm is resting on the guitar and not raised from the shoulder?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 1:43:44
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Hi there, I would be more worried about the fact that the tip joint of the fingers are collapsing in your strokes.

I think the raised shoulder is a tension habit and although a lot of people get away with it at least one prominent player has ended up with a really nasty focal distonia as a result of an unchecked shoulder raising and no longer has a picado.

At a distance it is really hard to give advice on picado as the problems change for individuals fluidly as their playing develops, but in order to push down you have to be bracing the weight of the hand(and indeed introduce finger stiffness) so that the force you apply doesnt cause the hand to lift or the tip joint to bend.

But maybe let accuracy be your guide, if you are dropping a lot of notes at performance speed then there is a problem. If you need more speed then maybe the technique has to change but that will happen as a consequence of your musical development . I am not sure that the reverse often occurs.

Sorry if this seems presumptuous, but I am a little drunk, feel free to ignore me.
D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 2:19:23
 
Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

I. Still feel picado is not achievable for all people . Perhaps try using the bounce , let the bounce become a tremor . Or you can turn to flickado moo ha ha ha ha .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 2:29:01
 
Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

quote:

Hi there, I would be more worried about the fact that the tip joint of the fingers are collapsing in your strokes


I agree with guitarbudda - very inefficient, take care of that first and you may discover you don't have a problem.
Cheers,
Dave

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Avise La Fin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 3:24:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Doutor, if your hand bounces, then some of the energy that should go to the stroke is going to moving your forearm. It would seem that the solution would involve optimizing your coordination so that more of your energy goes into depressing the string and not moving your forearm. I do not think relaxed tip joints would cause the problem; in fact, relaxing my tip joints helped this issue for me. (although I don't play very loud)

Disclaimer: I am a little tipsy too. Kim Crawford Pinot Noir, 2011.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 4:19:44
 
theblackcat

 

Posts: 57
Joined: Feb. 2 2010
From: Istanbul

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to Dave K

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave K

quote:

Hi there, I would be more worried about the fact that the tip joint of the fingers are collapsing in your strokes


I agree with guitarbudda - very inefficient, take care of that first and you may discover you don't have a problem.
Cheers,
Dave

Very much this. I think this is the first thing that PDL corrected in Vicente Amigo's playing when he saw him right?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 6:38:21
 
theblackcat

 

Posts: 57
Joined: Feb. 2 2010
From: Istanbul

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Doutor, if your hand bounces, then some of the energy that should go to the stroke is going to moving your forearm. It would seem that the solution would involve optimizing your coordination so that more of your energy goes into depressing the string and not moving your forearm. I do not think relaxed tip joints would cause the problem; in fact, relaxing my tip joints helped this issue for me. (although I don't play very loud)

Disclaimer: I am a little tipsy too. Kim Crawford Pinot Noir, 2011.

I think that could be because of the incorrect alignment of the finger joints. When looking at Ramzi's hand from the camera angle, the first joints of his picking fingers should always be concave to press down the strings and not collapse under the force/tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 6:44:10
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

I think you should take a lesson via Skype with Grisha or Ricardo.
It will be worth the money and will help you continue on your path
to improving your technique.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 9:41:57
 
rodrigovalt

Posts: 296
Joined: May 1 2011
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Hi Ramzi!

In the beginning of the video it was bouncing more in comparison to the rest. I noticed that you were not resting your forearm in the guitar ( it was completely on the air). When i do picado i always rest my forearm on the border of the guitar, in my opinion it helps you control your movement better.

Cheers

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Rodrigo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 11:33:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3289
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Ramzi,

In my opinion you should rest your upper arm on the side of the guitar so that the edge between the side and front (soundboard) does not dig into either your upper or forearm. Only you can determine if you have too much bounce in your hand, but my long-time flamenco guru, Paco de Malaga, taught me to maintain a steady hand, regardless what I am playing: picado, rasgeado, tremolo, etc. The more you allow your hand to "bounce" or move around, the less control you have. It has worked for me. (At least it has worked for me to the extent that my limited abilities allow!)

Cheers,

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 12:24:18
 
etta

 

Posts: 320
Joined: Jan. 20 2010
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Try straightening the two fingers and use a hammer effect pushing more down as the string is released. For me, less use of the end finger joint and more use of the finger/hand joint is very natural, gives greater power as well as speed and accuracy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 13:22:30

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

I dont think that's anything to be concerned about Romb.

Think more about your tone, and your rhythm.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 14:31:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13243
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

i dont' feel it's bouncing much. Nor is the tip joint flexing TOO much (ie hyper flexing backward...it's supposed to flex a tiny bit from curved to straight when playing.). I think the movement you have is not efficient enough as you like and therefore you are not going to get more speed. You need to focus on the same old thing we always talk about...STACATO....and you will gain efficiancy control speed, less bounce less flex less tension etc etc....The bounce is just your perception as a result of too much un needed movement of the fingers. Stacato takes care of that.

here you see some bounce at 2:30 onward as necessary. Middle tip joint has to fllex a bit more than index that he keeps pretty stiff. But his hand and shirst sleeve must bounce a little, not possible to do this and have only fingers moving.


Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 15:02:29
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

I like your picados, your pinky is awesome
I think you should be happy with them rather than concerned

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2012 16:53:05
 
rombsix

Posts: 7603
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Bouncing hand during picado (in reply to rombsix

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2012 20:30:57
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2012 0:54:51
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