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Anyone built a negra with mahogany back and sides?
Just curious and interested to know if anyone has played or built a flamenco negra with mahogany back and sides.
Mahogany is lighter than rosewoods and in the steelstring world its a very important tonewood, giving less bass and more midrange than rosewoods. A more compact sound. When I played steel sting it was my favorite wood for back and sides even though it looks a bit sad. But it gives a nice rock attack on a steel string. This could be interesting on a flamenco. Thats why I would like to know if anyone has any experience with that wood.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I found 3 Simplicio guitars available , all with mahogany backs and sides. While not specific as to classical or flamenco, I see no reason why mahognay would not make a fine "negra"... perhap "morado"
I have dozens of planks of mahigany I have collected over 30 years. I intended to use them for classical/flamenco... I think that if a builder such as Simplicio would choose mahogany, it validates mahonay as a proper tone wood for nylon stringed guitars.
I know some Spanish makers are using padauk/coral and claim it sounds between mahogany and rosewood...why not use either rosewood or mahogany.
Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
When I played steel sting it was my favorite wood for back and sides even though it looks a bit sad. But it gives a nice rock attack on a steel string.
I have never built a flamenco with it , only Steel string It does not need to look so plain if you finish it using a clear pore filler rather than the muddy looking stain and filler that CF Martin uses. Honduras Mahogany I presume? I have not been impressed with the African Mahogany that has come my way.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Thanks for your answers.
I forgot to say that I mean Honduran or American mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla)
So what is your impressions of the wood in the steel string world compared to Indian Rosewood. I have never built steel string but my experience as a player is that it Indian Rosewood gives more focus of highs and lows, while Mahogany gives more focus on midrange. As i wrote, when I played steel string, I preferred mahogany. It was more active when playing percussive stuff with not to many strings singing at a time and using right hand damping (acoustic rock), while rosewood was great for big singing chords.
If it works the same on a Flamenco, it could be a very interesting tonewood. Rosewoods sound great on Negras, but I always miss some pumping midrange and dynamics in Negras.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
We used to have 3 guitars at home - my brother's dreadnought with IR, my father's OM with mahogany and my jumbo with maple B/S. While the different shape of the guitars makes the comparison difficult, my experience is the same as what I generally read on internet - mahogany gives you a little softer bass and tone with STRONG emphasis on fundamental note. You don't get those rich harmonics and "built-in reverb" as with rosewood. For acoustic blues mahogany rules for me- it's got that "poor man's tone" Maybe for classical guitar the tone would be a little boring compared to rosewood? But so is cypress and we all love it
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Mahogany is a fine wood, although for nylon I suspect (all else being equal which it never is) it would impart a warmer and rounder aspect to the voice than rosewood. Steelstring makers like it because of that, with steelstrings getting a full bass response is the tough part, trebles come with the package. Which is the opposite of nylon string issues. In my town there is a well known steelstring builder, Julius Borges and a number of his guitars are mahogany and they are really killer. I'd like one for myself....
None of this is to say you can't work with mahogany to get the response you want for flamenco, I would brace it stiffer and take advantage of the fact that it weighs less than rosewood. It will be it's own sound but it could be really wonderful. I really like Koa, which is on par with mahogany IMO.
One thing to note about the Simplicio guitars in mahogany is he, at least the one's I've seen, used Cuban mahogany which is very different than Honduran. I have a set of 100 plus year old Cuban and it's very dense, more like a rosewood.
Hey Jeff, If you ever want to part with some of your 30 year old mahogany, let me know!:)
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I wonder how it compares to Walnut soundwise. I played a walnut flamenco and it was one of the best negras I ever tried. ON the other hand the other wood mentioned, Koa, was not so impressive sounding to me. It's tough, because all things considered equal is what you need to make a comparison and that is not easy to do. I have played cypress guitars that were not midrangy at all, in fact with very deep basses and rich overtone harmonics in the trebs. So a true test anders, unfortunately I say, is just build one and see.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Ricardo)
Walnut is a fine wood. Acoustically it is almost a perfect match for maple, which can make a very nice guitar. It's all in how you do it more than what you do it with.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to kominak)
quote:
mahogany gives you a little softer bass and tone with STRONG emphasis on fundamental note. You don't get those rich harmonics and "built-in reverb" as with rosewood.
Thanks for the inputs
This sounds interesting. I like when flamencos have a strong fundamental note. Thats very important IMHO. Actually one of the most important things in the tone of a good flamenco guitar. Personally, as a player, I´m also not the biggest fan of what you call "built in reverb" in flamenco guitars. I like a strong direct tone. and not to much flingelinge or boomyloomy.
Ricardo, I agree. I should build one. It´ll be a 2A and it wont be the first year or two. I´m sure that its more a matter of working the bracing and top than choosing the wood for back and sides. Its just giving a slight color to things.
Aaron, I follow what you say about warmer and rounder voice... But on the other hand, if its a trade that gives a more direct and percussive sound, then it could be very interesting as an alternative to heavy rosewoods with their bell like, clear voice. I like some more growl. I should build with a standard German spruce soundboard, because thats what I know the best and then the comparision would be best. But there´s a little voice saying sitka in my head. I have built 2 guitars with sitka spruce and have one here. I like that punchy high midrange that it gives.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Guest)
@ Ricardo Who made the Walnut negra?
***
I love Walnut as a tonewood. Well there are many varieties of Walnut, all of which are slightly different, Black Walnut, Claro Walnut, Bastogne, etc the English variety is my favourite for steel string guitars anyway. Almost a creamy midrange...
*** Anders have you seen these?
and
Both of which are for steel string guitar, but I guess some of the principles would still apply.
RE Mahogany... I'm a big fan of Mahogany as a tonewood when it comes to steel string guitars, which is my area of expertise really as a player anyway. Mahogany produces instruments which favour the midrange more so than rosewood instruments which tend to be more pronounced in trebles and basses; a generalisation and a assumption of course - it's impossible to account for all makes, instruments etc. Something which I like about Mahogany b/s steel string guitars is that they don't often have the most sustain like Rosewood guitars, which for fast fingerpicking is a good thing as sometimes fast fingerpicking a rosewood guitar can lead to a slightly muddy sound. With a 12 string guitar, I've found nearly all Rosewood b/s instruments to be a disappointment as there's too much sustain, too much overtones, while Mahogany on the other hand produces the 'right' amount of sustain, midrange.
I think Mahogany would produce a pretty decent sound for a flamenco guitar. I think it'd possibly be strong in the midrange, reasonable in the bass (not a huge amount of sustain, but some presence in the bass nonetheless) and the trebles will be quite rounded, not as smooth as a East Indian Rosewood negra and not as brilliant as a Cypress Blanca.
Rombsix, played a lot of things on a cedar/mahogany classical guitar, and I think a flamenco guitar with mahogany b/s wouldn't sound a million miles from it (if it had a cedar top).
There are some other tonewoods which I'd think would make a interesting flamenco guitar, which I don't think much discussion about exists.
Ovangkol - A western African wood which is increasingly being used by steel string guitar makers, which is a akin to EIR but without some of the overtones (I think it's maybe a little like Palo Escrito)
Sapele; which is seen to be a poor man's Mahogany but many are beginning to appreciate it for what it really is, which is a lot like mahogany but has a richer presence in the trebles.
Walnut; there are different varieties which have different tonal properties. American Black Walnut is growlier in the bass and defined in the trebles, English Walnut is more silky in the midrange.
Read good things about Primavera as a tonewood too.
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RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to tijeretamiel)
quote:
I think Mahogany would produce a pretty decent sound for a flamenco guitar. I think it'd possibly be strong in the midrange, reasonable in the bass (not a huge amount of sustain, but some presence in the bass nonetheless) and the trebles will be quite rounded, not as smooth as a East Indian Rosewood negra and not as brilliant as a Cypress Blanca.
There you see. Sometimes perception can be very different. My experience is that the trebles on a EI rosewood negra are very bright. Very clean, whereas on a blanca they have more substance. Are fatter and with a slight distortion in the edge . Some negras, when miked, can have really clean and hard trebles. I have the same experience with steelstrung EIR guitars.
My dad and I had two identical Levin (swedish handmade) dreadnaughts. His was maple and mine was Eir. Both with euro tops. Mine was louder and boomyer and very clean and loud trebles. His was less volume, more intimate, softer basses and rounder trebles. I prefered mine back then, but would most probably prefer his now.
Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Mahogany is the usual choice over rosewood in guitars build for bluegrass - another example of music that favors fast attack and decay as opposed to sustain. I always have wondered whether mahogany is a perfect sleeper wood for flamencos, and may even try it soon myself.
(I wonder whether cypress would make good bluegrass guitars )
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
My dad and I had two identical Levin (swedish handmade) dreadnaughts. His was maple and mine was Eir. Both with euro tops. Mine was louder and boomyer and very clean and loud trebles. His was less volume, more intimate, softer basses and rounder trebles. I prefered mine back then, but would most probably prefer his now.
Possibly because of age (?) With ears advancing age HF is less perceived. -
I always strain my ears when there is maple suggested as tone wood. A maple classical had the sweetest trebles I recall, and a maple acoustic bass, though quite soft, sounded just magically before it´s top sunk in ( green Chinese production ).
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Ruphus, I thinks its actually because I´m not a big fan of rosewoods. Especially not on flamenco and especially not the denser ones. This glass taptone is just not me.
I´m building a Panama rosewood Negra right now. A totally quatersawn piece just like EIR and it weighs some 15% less than EIR. If I could get a reasonbably good supply of Palo Escrito, I would also build Negras with that for the same reason. Its even lighter than the Pan rosewood I´m using now.
Maple, I prefer for steel strung guitars (and the violin family of course) On Classicals its ok and very elegant especially in baroque music, but on flamencos.... Its just not my taste and I´ve tried a few. Its personal and there are others really liking it. I dont like the mix of heavy wood and strong damping on flamencos. It feels dead in my hands and I want flamencos to be explosive
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
You could try Spanish Cedar, which as we all know is a light mahogany. It can also come highly flamed and very unboring, but depends how much you like flamed wood.
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RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
tijeretamiel
Finally i could see the photos of the wood ranging. they were not working before. Its interesting and it only makes me like the idea more. I like woody . I like midrange. I like emphasis on fundamental tone. I think cypress has a good deal of all that. I also like flamed woods. I like violins you know. And i like quileted mahogany.
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I dont like the mix of heavy wood and strong damping on flamencos. It feels dead in my hands and I want flamencos to be explosive
Hey Anders,
That makes technical sense for a percussive instrument as a flamenca should be.
I have yet to understand and discover what materials and builds might be suiting me best, or whether the major factor would rather be luthier´s proceeding in the individual case ( which I suppose ).
All I know so far, appears to be that I am having a faible for blancas.
And when I try to remember properties of guitars I liked best; I suspect that there must be a way for feather-light, super fast / exploding guitars, that yet be of a dark, romantic timbre.
Must a description like this be sounding physically contradictive?
( I think the specimen written on in my `phantom pain´ thread to have had such characteristics, though I can´t dig up whether it actually was a [tinted] blanca or not. [ From what I think to remember of its weight, it might well have been.])
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
And when I try to remember properties of guitars I liked best; I suspect that there must be a way for feather-light, super fast / exploding guitars, that yet be of a dark, romantic timbre.
Must a description like this be sounding physically contradictive?
Its not contradictive in my mind. Building thin and light always produces deep and dark. When you take off mass of wood, you lower its frequenze. Difficult is building very light and very bright. The romantic timbre is something very subjective though. What might be romantic to me, might not be so for you.
Posts: 124
Joined: Oct. 22 2012
From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Well, I've been reading this thread with interest. I've just started a build of a blanca flamenco in the tradional way. While I'm building one guitar, I'm always thinking of my next build. I'm glad someone mentioned the use of walnut for b&s, as I have a stash of black walnut. Also, in my stash is some cherry that I've been wondering if it would make a decent flamenco. All in all, I think mahogany would make a better flamenco than either of the two I've mentioned. So...yes Someone should build one!
RE: Anyone built a negra with mahoga... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Ruphus, In the past using wood other than Cypress for flamencos was frowned upon mostly by guitar buyers. Now it's starting to loosen up a because more and more guitar makers are starting to build a talk about other woods which can make really interesting and good flamenco sounds.
The purist Cypress thinking is giving way to more acceptance of other woods due to luthiers convincing players to try them. There are several good woods which are similar to cypress in density, workability and feel. And some different that are making good guitars. Most of the success of a guitar however depends on how the builder handles the wood with bracing, thicknessing and design of the over all guitar.
For example if a person made a Cypress blanca and built the same exact design with another wood, say Black Acacia one of my favorites, the guitars would probably express some character for those two respective back and side woods. But building a blanca over and over with only Cypress you still can get a range of sounds depending on how you brace both tops and backs and thickness them. The same thing would happen if one were to build over and over with Black Acacia. Eventually a pattern of how that maker treats that wood emerges. Another maker might have a totally different feel for that material and make another type of sound.
A big part of making a flamenco is getting it correct mechanically, the mechanics of the top dictate more of that than back and sides. By mechanics I mean the pulasation, the tension, the rasgueado, the tempo of starting and stopping when damping out the strings. Those important attributes can be built with any back and side woods, almost, by a good builder. But saying how back and sides effect sound is really a generalization, because each builder will interpret the materials very differently.
To me almost any wood will make good flamenco if the flamenco mechanics are built into the guitar. The rest is taste and choice of the player.
----- The violin is a different basic structure to the guitar and a lot of direct analogies don't crossover then taking about how back and sides effect sound. Which can be frustrating when you deal with people to like to cross those boundaries without discrimination or logic. Maple is used because it is the wood the Italians arrived at for the best sound and durability. I have not made a violin with Indian Rosewood, but it is different form maple and it may give too harsh a sound for the violin. I can't be sure never having made one, but I speculate. Many old Italian viols, violas and celli, and a few violins were made with Pear, Apple wood and Poplar (Cypress too some experts think in a few cases of cellos).
Violin tops are driven by the bow and the top pivots over the sound post, the energy in the string is fed into the bridge-post-bass bar- top system differently than on a guitar. The violin has this localized intensity of energy fed into that system and needs a little 'buffering' by using back and sides that are not super dense. Whereas the guitar has a weaker 'energy to string feed' and it needs a different approach which eradicates as much non vibration transmitting parts of the system as possible.
The fact that violins have smaller arched plates and guitars have large flat plates is also major game changer in terms of how the system converts string energy into sound. The violin probably has more raw energy being fed into the system than a guitar and the guitar is bigger and somewhat more inefficient. So they are quite different in terms of how to build for different back and sides choices.
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And i like quileted mahogany. 
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