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RE: fine tuning a top
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wfrancis86
Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
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 RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Dear Tom,
I can see that was your original intention and my "rant" was intended to be in your support. I am extremely grateful this forum exists and I know you accomplished luthiers gain little or nothing from sharing (or at least trying to share your experience/knowledge)... your willingness to share is most admirable. Please don't let snarky novices like myself, who have a problem with keeping their mouths shut, deter you all from posting and sharing your thoughts and experiences.
And yes I have "bothered" (if you want to put it that way because I don't) to read the entire thread, and my response was an effort to bring us back on track. The thoughts on thinning around the bridge... the idea that individual strings and their respective tension may be adjusted by making fine adjustments to the fan bracing... the idea that once a guitar is "completed" a luthier can still make fine tune adjustments to their liking... the connections (or lack there of) between vihuelas, lutes, and the modern Spanish guitar... the idea that however obscure and fantastical a method may sound does not give us the right to write it off until we have tried it ourselves and learned our own way of doing it... these are a few of the lessons I have learned in this thread and so it was certainly not a waste of my time. Just because I didn't take away from the thread what others have intended to communicate doesn't mean I haven't read everyone's post carefully. It's just my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
On the other hand, I am entitled to my right to skepticism; its my interpretation however convoluted it may or may not be. There is a fine line (and I would go as far as to argue an imaginary and subjective one) between "information" for the good of the art and the opposite. In my opinion, players who are reading this thread and decide I am going to take my guitar and try and mess with it by applying salt water to the braces is a gross misinterpretation of the thread, as I think you would agree Tom. This is to blame it all on the shoes so to speak. That's not your fault, and to suggest so is unfair. Sometimes valuable information is quickly digested and the only thing left over is banter (ie. applying salt and its loose connection to Liberace)... this may be frustrating for some because I don't think it is part of our more sincere intentions in sharing. We love building guitars and that love for the art is what brings us all together but if we become overly sensitive to the opinions of others we risk taking the element of fun out of the whole endeavor and relationship. We are a community of friends here in the end, are we not? If the forum isn't fun, if its a place where everyone is hyper sensitive to the opinions of others (the only posts I've made have divulged into borderline shouting matches despite the fact that my original intentions were genuine attempts at improving as a luthier and therefore hopefully someday advancing the art in some way or another), the forum will cease to exist as a valuable resource to both accomplished luthiers and novices alike.
I don't post much on the forum, I largely browse the threads in the search function to read information on whatever particular aspect I might be working on at the moment, but I decided to write as much as I did in this particular thread because I think what has transpired here touches on what is fundamentally wrong with this forum. I love the occasional jest and bird walk, particularly those of Stephen F and Richard J because as soon as I feel like never frequenting the forum again for information because I have to weave between so many bruised egos, I read some of the less serious replies they contribute and they make me laugh and so I return again. This is my outside-looking-in perspective. Let's just have fun while we share and explore our passion.
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Date Oct. 29 2012 15:21:48
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to wfrancis86)
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Ok
I´ll just put one thing up.
TomB is talking about putting more tension on the top. He mentioned different ways of doing so. Salty fingers, sanding the braces a bit in front of the bridge, thinning the top a bit where the bridge is and even sanding the soundboard in front of the bridge.
All this in order to slightly tilt the bridge, so the soundboard in front of it goes a bit down and behind it goes a little bit up.... (correct me if I´m wrong)
This is all good politics if its done ever so lightly. If the bridge starts to to tilt more than just a tad, its called dishing. The soundboard starts sinking down. And now its a problem, because the guitar is starting to wear out. Look at the amount of old guitars with this problem.
So be very carefull. You can easily end up with a guitar that sounds very nice for a short time and then its worn out. And changing the braces and putting the soundboard back in shape is something you only do on very high end or historical guitars. Its very expensive and a huge amount of work.
The trick for the builder is, as was mentioned, to try to get everything as good as possible before you tweak. To have a good starting point is essential. And that includes all the little things, like the soundboard, the braces, the bridge, the assembly and very important the overall balance. If thats not right, you can finetune untill you kill the poor little guitar and you wont be happy.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 29 2012 18:19:40
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
Ok
I´ll just put one thing up.
TomB is talking about putting more tension on the top. He mentioned different ways of doing so. Salty fingers, sanding the braces a bit in front of the bridge, thinning the top a bit where the bridge is and even sanding the soundboard in front of the bridge.
Tom: I don't sand the actual top in front of the bridge but directly under the bridge about .5 mm and feather it out, very lightly to both front and back of the bridge.
quote:
All this in order to slightly tilt the bridge, so the soundboard in front of it goes a bit down and behind it goes a little bit up.... (correct me if I´m wrong)
Tom: Actually, you quoted me very close.
quote:
This is all good politics if its done ever so lightly. If the bridge starts to tilt more than just a tad, its called dishing. The soundboard starts sinking down. And now its a problem, because the guitar is starting to wear out. Look at the amount of old guitars with this problem.
So be very carefull. You can easily end up with a guitar that sounds very nice for a short time and then its worn out. And changing the braces and putting the soundboard back in shape is something you only do on very high end or historical guitars. Its very expensive and a huge amount of work.
The trick for the builder is, as was mentioned, to try to get everything as good as possible before you tweak. To have a good starting point is essential. And that includes all the little things, like the soundboard, the braces, the bridge, the assembly and very important the overall balance. If thats not right, you can finetune untill you kill the poor little guitar and you wont be happy.
Tom: Well, very close but I've just found that a pretty sad guitar can be brought back into balance and voice, or let's just say, fine-tuning improved it a lot. But this is no guarantee that all guitars can be helped. The design has a lot to do with it, and how familiar the repairman is with that particular design.
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Date Oct. 29 2012 20:30:14
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to wfrancis86)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wfrancis86
Tom you said you've heard accomplished spanish guitar makers claim if in front of the bridge the soundboard is not concave its not a good guitar... You hinted that it has to do with string tension, what in your experience is actually going on here? How exactly would a concave structure influence string tension? Could this simply be coincidence, in that I mean an old guitar will probably begin to fail at this point as Ander's had mentioned and is it just a mere coincidence that we equate old with great and therefore concave in front of the bridge with great, or is there actual logic behind this? Hopefully that makes sense, if not I'll try again
My experience has been that if a guitar has some appearance of dishing out in front of the bridge, that this is not to say its a bad guitar. An old Santos pattern I built for Robert Guthrie was this way after years of playing but it still had a fantastic sound.
And most good guitars, when they dish out a little, this is usually a peaking out process and the top moves no further after its initial stress, unless weather or some other outside influence causes it to. Also, some tops bend because they are subjected to too hard string tension. This can cause the sound to go dead if not treated carefully.
But like Anders said, it's best to build to the line so that there is very little tweaking necessary to gain near perfect balance and good tone.
I believe this is more in keeping with fine-tuning practice, as it evolves. We build the design close to the edge and fine tune the nuance and balance.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Oct. 29 2012 20:42:41
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to wfrancis86)
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A thing that makes me sad when I read a thread like this is the following:
You have all these non builders using the word ´rights´ That since they have spend their money on something, they can do whatever they feel like.
What about the word ´respect´. That you guys respect the builder and his/her labour. It seems to me that its not important, because when you have money you can do whatever and you are the "king" of the show.
Those of us building full time professionally are strugling. We dont earn a lot of money and we really try to make a product that is ours. That has our signature. Not only on the label, but in sound, playability and personality.
If those with all their rights go out and change that. They change our work and here we, the builders, have a big problem.
Our instruments are references. When someone try another persons instrument, they get a reference of that builders work. If this has been changed by some video tweaker, than that reference is gone. Its dead.
So please, think things over and think about how you guys would like to be treated if you were the builder. So I will repeat, if you ever "finetune" one of my guitars, please be so respectfull as to take out my label and sand away my signature inside the guitar. I will no longer be the builder. It wont be a guitar of mine, it wont have my 'air'.
So will you do so or will you be afraid of resale value? If you get afraid of resale value, you agree that money is more important than respect. That with money anyone can do whatever they want.
I know perfectly well that its the way the world works. But do you like that? Do you think its fair? is it respectfull? Wouldnt it be better to just sell the guitar and find another?
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 30 2012 8:01:53
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KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
I know perfectly well that its the way the world works. But do you like that?
I don't think anyone likes it. I think we all find ourselves backed into corners constantly by this current reality and money system.
I guess one way of addressing this is to create things with good intention for yourself and others to enjoy, without expecting any respect or gratification. If we can do that then maybe that is enough?
I understand your concerns Anders. Hopefully no one has taken out the sandpaper and begun tuning your guitars.
But there is also another side to the story. That of the buyer/guitar player.
A guitar that has an issue is not easy to sell. Many players lose a lot of money when either a guitar presents a problem or a buyer makes an uninformed buy. Many beginners buy guitars before they can play well enough to understand what they are looking for.
I see it a lot when beginners come to me for lessons, sometimes they have an expensive guitar and i see that they don't have the necessary technique or knowledge to even test or understand the guitar that they have bought.
Another example from the guitarists perspective. My Pedro Maldonado guitar. I paid $7000 for that guitar when new. I trusted that the maker knew what he was doing, and that the guitar would last me many years.
Then without any mistreatment or mistake of my own, the neck timber developed some movement around the 6th fret. Not wanting to alter the guitar, my solution was to lower the string slots in the nut until the strings were resting on the first fret, and then file the first two frets down to almost nothing to bring the action back into shape. I can only hope that it does not move anymore. so far so good.
Unfortunately guitars sometimes change for the worse. I guess that's the nature of timber. It's unpredictable and can change over time. If enough time passes it is no longer the responsibility of the builder. Fair enough, but it sucks for the guy with the guitar.
When my Maldonado presented a problem, I could have said nothing and tried to sell the guitar to a beginner who does not realize? Would that be respectful to them? No, i am not like that. I don't like that kind of thing. I decided to repair it as best i could, be honest, and accept that i will lose money if i sell.
I have another friend who ordered a guitar from a well known spanish maker. When the guitar developed, it had more of a classical sound than flamenco and he was not fully happy. He liked it a first but over time it became less attractive. Too late to send it back.
He has been trying to sell it since. So when you say "wouldn't it be better to sell the guitar and find another" yes it would, but it's not always that easy. It's not only guitar builders that are struggling these days.
Yes there are ethical issues about changing someone's work or creation. But in a perfect world every guitar to be exactly what the buyer wants before he buys it. And selling any guitar for a great price would be easy. But it doesn't always work out like that.
If someone is on the receiving end of a guitar that they have spent all their savings on, and after a while feel unhappy with the guitar, and have trouble selling it, and have a maker that says, "well that's the way i wanted the guitar to be" then if a re tuning is an option, I believe it may be worth considering. Not to be disrespectful to the maker, but to bring some sort of resolve to the owner.
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Date Oct. 30 2012 11:26:18
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to KMMI77)
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quote:
If someone is on the receiving end of a guitar that they have spent all their savings on, and after a while feel unhappy with the guitar, and have trouble selling it, and have a maker that says, "well that's the way i wanted the guitar to be" then if a re tuning is an option, I believe it may be worth considering. Not to be disrespectful to the maker, but to bring some sort of resolve to the owner.
There are stories about this issue and I'll share one: But first there is a question of ethics regarding a violin, a very expensive violin. I saw this technique used on a major name violin; how a repairman adjusted the tonal response on TV. He scraped the inside to alter the tone and it was very noticeable, even while listening to the TV.
The violin definitely improved and the owner was very happy with it. So, this brings into the picture, how do we feel about this obvious trend among those who feel its OK to adjust very expensive violins? This short movie was taken at a well known violin house in New York, many years ago but I can't remember the name; some French person owned it.
Another story was about a flamenco guitarist, years ago, who visited my home, and during the visit I asked him if I could examine his Reyes guitar. He said that Reyes probably wouldn't like that, so I asked him to call Sr. Reyes on my nickle to see if it would be OK. In other words I confronted him with the possibility that Reyes would agree with me, that its the player's guitar and he should be able to do with it what he chooses.
Well, he called Sr. Reyes and Reyes told him almost the exact words that I used.
So, what does this mean about guitars? For one....I think it means that Reyes doesn't get attached to his guitars after they are sold. And this is the same with me, I don't hang on to the guitar after it leaves the shop. The player owns it and if he decides to re-sell or do whatever to it then that is his property and he can do what he wants.
And I reason that this might happen some time in the future, just don't tell me about it:-)
But if collectors are buying my guitars, which they are doing, then they will want a guitar to be as original as possible. And if per chance some one does alter the sound, then I hope they know what they are doing and can actually make it better.
But I don't see how this would happen, due to the already finely-tuned guitars that I make. All they could accomplish is to potentially pull the tone off center.
And this is one reason that I recommend that the buyer stay with the string brand I tune the guitar with. The guitar is so finely tuned that it's imperative, if they don't want to pull the tone off center.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Oct. 30 2012 14:06:18
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I understand and agree with your ethical position, Anders.
But I have experienced a couple things that I believe fall into a gray area.
My '67 Ramirez blanca came with pegs. They never did work really well. As time went on they wore unevenly and became a nuisance. While buying some classicals from Jose III, I complained to him about the pegs. He offered to replace them with machines, at a good price. At the time he was producing more and more blancas with machines.
I never had the guitar in Spain long enough to take Ramirez up on the offer. I took the guitar to Frank Ford, the fabled repairman at Gryphon in Palo Alto. He refused to do the job, because it would "alter the character of the instrument." I explained that Ramirez had offered to do the job, but still no dice.
I played it with the pegs for several more years. Finally I took it to the shop of a very well known maker on the Peninsula south of San Francisco. He put on the machines with no hesitation. I had grown accustomed to the ease and precision of tuning my classical, and I remain very pleased with the Ramirez.
But knowing what I know now, I think I would first take the guitar to a good luthier or violin repairman to try having them install new pegs in re-reamed holes. I have played some guitars with pegs that work well.
In 1991 I bought a spruce/Brazilian "doble tapa" from Manuel Contreras, Sr at his shop in the Calle Mayor. I had played very little classical at the time, so my trials of guitars in Madrid were based on my flamenco right hand technique. From among several of the Madrid makers, I chose the Contreras.
Nine years later I bought another classical. It taught me a great deal about classical right hand technique. I grew a bit dissatisfied with the Contreras. In 2007 I visited the Contreras shop again. I mentioned an experimental feature of the doble tapa to Pablo [Manuel Contreras II]. He offered to remove the experimental feature at no cost, saying he thought it would improve the guitar significantly. Sadly Pablo has passed away, too soon after the demise of his father, a wonderful man. The shop on Calle Mayor is now closed.
I haven't consulted any well known luthiers or repair men about the Contreras. I remain in doubt how to proceed.
RNJ
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Date Oct. 30 2012 21:41:49
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: fine tuning a top (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
This thread makes me really sad and upset as there is so much misinformation and bad conceptualization of the guitar making process being being thrown about. And the way this topic is ethically divisive between those who make guitars and those who want to own guitars is depressing.
............................................
Steve, I'd really like to know what your complaint is with my previous post. "My experience has been that if a guitar has some appearance of dishing out in front of the bridge, that this is not to say its a bad guitar. An old Santos pattern I built for Robert Guthrie was this way after years of playing but it still had a fantastic sound.
And most good guitars, when they dish out a little, this is usually a peaking out process and the top moves no further after its initial stress, unless weather or some other outside influence causes it to. Also, some tops bend because they are subjected to too hard string tension. This can cause the sound to go dead if not treated carefully.
But like Anders said, it's best to build to the line so that there is very little tweaking necessary to gain near perfect balance and good tone.
I believe this is more in keeping with fine-tuning practice, as it evolves. We build the design close to the edge and fine tune the nuance and balance."
....................................................
I stand by this information that I have experienced for 53 years, and if you don't understand what I saying then I'll be happy to try and do a better job of explaining it to the members here.
Many guitars made in the past, dish out to some extent, but this doesn't mean that they won't be efficient for the life of the player. Usually wood will bend to a certain extent and then stop when it reaches its high stress point, or peak, unless acted upon by a stronger tension added to its peak.
But then if we have a giant warping of the top, then that's another situation altogether. So its fine for me to develop certain safe guards for the older styles, like I did with the Miguel Rodriguez top plan I donated to the GAL.
And Steve, I would encourage you to add your techniques to anything said here, as a welcomed addition to guitar making.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Oct. 30 2012 22:15:03
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