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RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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quote:
Why would it matter which way the braces slanted?
I know, I know, many classical/flamenco builders think that extra bracing on the treble side strengthens the trebles--but Robert Ruck found that it made no difference which side was reinforced. The vibrations don't know that they're supposed to stay on "their" side.
Its a very good question. I´m not going to say something about steelstrings with x braces etc, because i dont have any experience, but I´ve tried a couple of flamencos that were with the bracing the other way round. left handed Rodriguez classical bracing system (xlight) on a righthanded flamenco guitar.. They were made by Manuel Bellido and they were some of the best of his guitars that I´ve tried and I´ve tried a few.
It taught me that most of all these left/right hand ideas (and some other ideas) are for narrowminded builders who doesnt have the capacity to accept things, that doesnt work the way they think they should, can actually be very good . I respect each builders method, but I dont respect the builders who by some reason have to force other builders to think the way they do.
I prefer to have a more open mind and even though I would never build like Bellido, I trust my senses and when something is good, its good and when something works, it works and then my ideas are not worth very much. In the end its all about balance.
Back to the steelstring. I was actually thinking about leaving the braces the way they were, but since I know very little, I found it to be to pretencious to think I knew better than tradition.
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 18 2013 21:07:22
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
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Tom,
You openly dissed Ethan in this very condescending reply. Why don't you recognize you bait others and bring these quips your own way with your overbearing attitude? Then you have huzpah to flip it around on others....???
I was quite interested in what Ethan had to say, but you put a negative spin to his contribution. You are counter productive time after time. No wonder Anders has no patience with you. As soon as someone puts their best foot forward you step on that foot.
Please, please think before you write. And don't cry foul when you bait others.
If you bother to re-read my post you would understand that I have a difference of opinion with Bob Ruck about this issue. It certainly does not mean that I dislike Ruck's work but that my own experience justifies what I say here.
And I'm sure that Ethan does not take offense at this, as it was not meant as a correction toward him, if you read my post. He was merely repeating what Ruck had to say on this matter.
This is a matter of information exchange by different guitar makers and I resent the fact that Anders always has to jump in with some insulting remark against what I have to say on this forum. I would love to see a more congenial discussion of these differences without some insulting disagreement that has no place with artists of like art.
And to clarify the rest, I have, on occasion, strung a right handed guitar...one in a Santos style, left handed and it was a righteous sounding instrument...so much so that I turned the pattern over and used the opposite to build with after that occasion.
But now, I'm tuning the fan braces so fine that even switching string brands can throw the voicing and articulation off. Since recently finding this out I have put up a disclaimer on my front page website to warn against changing string brands at your own risk.
And this is what I mean when I disagree with a general rule of top vibration, as it goes a lot deeper that just changing right to left hand technique. There are certain nuances involved that characterize each instrument. Being a guitar maker par excellance, you should understand this.
_____________________________
Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date Jan. 19 2013 1:18:11
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
I think Bob Ruck may have been presenting that particular protocol in general but it does make a difference in some cases to where certain vibrational balance and synergistic communication is necessary, especially with my fine tuning the articulation and voicing of certain strings to get their fullest compliance with performance. But if some players can't hear or feel the difference, then it would make no difference to them.
You also lost me at 'synergistic'. I'm a smart guy, but it this sounds like voodoo talk. I call that out.
Here is what we know, guitar tops don't adhere to strict theory in how they react to bracing. One can say one does not know which side the blah-blah-blah (name your component) braces are on and how it will effect the sound because of what we heard Bob Ruck say.
Vibration is not 'area specific' let's say, to put it into plain language. In other words a treble vibration does not inhabit one isolated section of the sound board anymore than a bass vibration does, to distill down the Ruck idea into a simple form.
That said here is the rub, when we try to contain or influence certain parts of the soundboard to promote a certain vibration our geographic intuition about what should effect treble and what should effect bass actually to some extent works even though it is a totally anecdotal model to follow. An example would be Santos' use of the diagonal bar to effect treble response.
We see that bar going down to treble side so we think Hey! More treble! right? Maybe. Maybe what is also happening is the whole sound board area is being more controlled because we are changing the active areas of the sound board by closing off a major area an in effect making our 'drumhead' smaller and tighter, but at the same time retaining the same amount of air in the box. If we flip the bar in mirror position we create the same amount of controlled surface area a limit the n the same way, but it goes against our natural inclination towards dividing the top into areas which vibrate according to which string is closest to that area.
But we just came from there, where Mr. Ruck says the whole thing vibrates and vibration does not have brain to tell it to go here or there. It moves to where it feels limitation imposed by braces and rim.
So that means what? That braces could be more changeable than remaining with the Torres kite scheme. Mirror images of asymmetrical systems of bracing can effect in much the same way as the first intuitive treble bass oriented pattern. We can flip-flop asymmetrical patterns and still make good guitars. It has been proven. Cited was Manuel Bellido.
So in theory this all means that the top is like vibration; it does not care how it is braced so long as it gets what it needs in terms of flexibility, weight, stiffness, edge treatment, bridge, arching, thickness etc. We know for fact that several systems make good guitars, but what we have to apply in each case is understanding of how to make all those attributes I listed come out of a bracing pattern.
There is more than one way to optimize each system and more than one way to optimize Torres bracing. The understanding of how to do that is often not translatable into language because it is an inner language of tactile experience that guides the brain and hand in telling how much gets left in or out of the process. Language can often only express an abstraction of what is really going on with the inner process of voicing a guitar. It is like a painter throwing brush strokes, it can either be done illustrationally by following a formula or it can be done directly through the nervous system by hands on contact with the material. And granted mechanical means of guidance like tone generation testing and weighing parts can all play a factor to the betterment of your work.
In the end you are either building by rote making illustrations of brace patterns or you are engaging your nervous system and transmitting your inner intelligence to the work. The problem is that everyone has a different and personal way if transmitting that intelligence, that is for the most part internal and non linguistic.
That is my attempt at explaining something I can't explain, but using the plainest language I have at my service.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 19 2013 3:25:16
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