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RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread
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Blondie#2
Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
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 RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Carlos Amps)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carlos Amps
Why is such a nice guitar having a pickup system that makes her sound like any cheap Chinese one ? Absolutely ridiculous .... For me it is like having a Maserati but saving money on carburator, using one of Fiat 500
Hi Carlos
Good to see you on the forum, I am familiar with your work - a friend of mine has one of your systems installed.
I agree with what you say above, but the simple truth is that good pick up systems for nylon strung guitars, especially flamencos, are very hard to come by!
The mass market is saturated with pick ups that sound awful (including some quite expensive ones) and most players won't even entertain the idea that a pick up system can sound good on a flamenco.
The most interesting developments/innovations in this area seem to be by small 'boutique' manufacturers like yourself who build to order. This is obviously going to be a lot more expensive than off the shelf systems, but also guitarists have limited scope to try them out first - it is easy to try a guitar with a Fishman blend but how many people can get their hands on one of your installed systems, for example?
Add this to the fact that installation of boutique systems is often critical with unique considerations (eg I believe your own coaxial undersaddle pick up requires a circular slot to be routed?) and it means its difficult for people to order and then get it installed locally.
I have a Pick Up the World system installed in my Ricardo Sanchis, again they are a small specialist manufacturer who build to order. It is excellent for the money and blows away piezo-based pickups - very dynamic, no quacks, golpes loud and clear etc.
It was not straight forward to get hold of (you cannot buy them here in the UK), or to get installed properly (the first luthier couldn't get it right), but I finally got there and I am very pleased, I finally have an amplified flamenco guitar that sounds like a flamenco guitar.
Anyway, just wanted to share my thoughts on what I think is an important topic, miking up is not always possible or the best solution and its great that people like you are pushing the boundaries developing pick up systems for flamenco guitar. Keep up the good work!
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Date Oct. 3 2013 11:52:13
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
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quote:
Brazilian is amazing
Yes, everything around Brazil rosewood is AMAZING.
Most of all, I find it to be AMAZING that builders still use it and that players buy new guitars made with braz rosewood. I´ll explain:
First of all, the myth concerning braz rosewood is about Rio rosewood or rio palisander (Dalberghia Nigra) and nothing else. The rest is just brownish heavy wood from South America.
its AMAZINGLY illegal. Its been forbidden for decades to chop the trees. And you can only buy the wood legally if it has papers (CITES) Also you can only sell guitars legally legally if it has papers. Try importing a guitar to the USA with Braz rosewood and no CITES and you´ll find out.
You can of course think that you dont care about the environmental situation in Brazil and you can also think that you dont care about these laws and rules. BUT then, please, accept that you cant care about environmental issues where you live and you cant expect people to follow the laws and rules that you find to be important.
There´s an amazing amount of cheating going on when it comes to Braz rosewood and its on all levels including wood cutters, wood dealers and musical instrument makers. All kinds of brownish wood from South America can be found and sold as Braz rosewood.
I know about makers that even though they bought wood called “Caviuna”, they made and sold guitars and said it was Braz rosewood.
Very few persons know how to distinguish the real thing from all the fake. Those of us who have only had a few sets in our hands, we know nothing and can just pray that we havent been cheated and that some dude who bought our Braz rosewood guitar wont send us a lawsuit if its found out that it was Jacaranda or Caviuna we sold under a false name.
Even the specialists find it hard to to distinguish the real thing from fake. Not so many years ago, Maderas Barber in Valencia sold a very pretty wood called Caviuna. It totally looked like high grade Braz rosewood with spider webbing and a deep chocolate color. The authorities blocked the sale of the wood while they were taking DNA tests of the wood. They found out that it was NOT Braz rosewood, so at least Bareber had not been wrong, but it only shows how difficult it is even for experts to see the difference.
I´ve made 3 Braz rosewood guitars and I wont make more. It should be obvious why. The wood I bought pretty cheap on a sale that California based Allied Luhiery had almost 10 years ago. I took the sets to a well known builder who had built several guitars with Braz (Rio) rosewood back in the “good old days”. He told me he coundnt say 100% what it was, but he was pretty sure it was Rio. Allied sold it as “Stump Wood” claiming it didn´t need CITES, but the wood arrived without any papers saying that, so judge yourselves. I just know that the different custom authorities dont care at all about stories. They want paper and nothing else. No correct papers, and you´re out.
Besides that, Braz rosewood is a nice tonewood, but its just a piece of wood and there´s absolutely nothing magical about it. I dont even think its better than many other tonewoods. Its pretty heavy, which I personally dont like to much for flamencos, and its VERY unstable.
To be totally honest, its a piece of wood for the guitar snobs. Those who think they are so extremely important persons that only the most extreme piece of wood is good enough for them. You know these kind of guys who cant accept to drive a Ford or a Toyota when they go to work, but something a lot “finer”.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 6 2013 17:27:39
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Yes, everything around Brazil rosewood is AMAZING.
Most of all, I find it to be AMAZING that builders still use it and that players buy new guitars made with braz rosewood. I´ll explain:
First of all, the myth concerning braz rosewood is about Rio rosewood or rio palisander (Dalberghia Nigra) and nothing else. The rest is just brownish heavy wood from South America.
its AMAZINGLY illegal. Its been forbidden for decades to chop the trees. And you can only buy the wood legally if it has papers (CITES) Also you can only sell guitars legally legally if it has papers. Try importing a guitar to the USA with Braz rosewood and no CITES and you´ll find out.
You can of course think that you dont care about the environmental situation in Brazil and you can also think that you dont care about these laws and rules. BUT then, please, accept that you cant care about environmental issues where you live and you cant expect people to follow the laws and rules that you find to be important.
There´s an amazing amount of cheating going on when it comes to Braz rosewood and its on all levels including wood cutters, wood dealers and musical instrument makers. All kinds of brownish wood from South America can be found and sold as Braz rosewood.
I know about makers that even though they bought wood called “Caviuna”, they made and sold guitars and said it was Braz rosewood.
Very few persons know how to distinguish the real thing from all the fake. Those of us who have only had a few sets in our hands, we know nothing and can just pray that we havent been cheated and that some dude who bought our Braz rosewood guitar wont send us a lawsuit if its found out that it was Jacaranda or Caviuna we sold under a false name.
Even the specialists find it hard to to distinguish the real thing from fake. Not so many years ago, Maderas Barber in Valencia sold a very pretty wood called Caviuna. It totally looked like high grade Braz rosewood with spider webbing and a deep chocolate color. The authorities blocked the sale of the wood while they were taking DNA tests of the wood. They found out that it was NOT Braz rosewood, so at least Bareber had not been wrong, but it only shows how difficult it is even for experts to see the difference.
I´ve made 3 Braz rosewood guitars and I wont make more. It should be obvious why. The wood I bought pretty cheap on a sale that California based Allied Luhiery had almost 10 years ago. I took the sets to a well known builder who had built several guitars with Braz (Rio) rosewood back in the “good old days”. He told me he coundnt say 100% what it was, but he was pretty sure it was Rio. Allied sold it as “Stump Wood” claiming it didn´t need CITES, but the wood arrived without any papers saying that, so judge yourselves. I just know that the different custom authorities dont care at all about stories. They want paper and nothing else. No correct papers, and you´re out.
Besides that, Braz rosewood is a nice tonewood, but its just a piece of wood and there´s absolutely nothing magical about it. I dont even think its better than many other tonewoods. Its pretty heavy, which I personally dont like to much for flamencos, and its VERY unstable.
To be totally honest, its a piece of wood for the guitar snobs. Those who think they are so extremely important persons that only the most extreme piece of wood is good enough for them. You know these kind of guys who cant accept to drive a Ford or a Toyota when they go to work, but something a lot “finer”.
Nice to have you back Anders  (seriously)
I'm curious if you actually think I don't know all of what you just said? Because any luthier interested in using Brazilian would be an idiot to not understand the rules and regulations revolving around it, or the ethical aspects of using it.
I'm not really interested in doing a DNA test on my wood so I can't say with 100% certainty that this is Brazilian, just that it was sold to me and documented as such.
But the wood used in this guitar was a special set of wood, no question about that in my mind as a guitar maker. The tap tone of the wood and the sound qualities of the guitar are unique from anything else I've worked with and to me it frankly was a little bit amazing. It's drastically different from Indian Rosewood which I've never found to be a very exciting tonewood.
If you're suspicious of me trying to use Brazilian Rosewood as "marketing hype", please relax because that's not what's going on. It's not even on my website, and I wouldn't recommend it at all to the average flamenco player, only someone who also plays classical or some type of crossover stuff.
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Oct. 6 2013 21:23:09
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krichards
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
quote:
Brazilian is amazing
Yes, everything around Brazil rosewood is AMAZING.
Most of all, I find it to be AMAZING that builders still use it and that players buy new guitars made with braz rosewood. I´ll explain:
First of all, the myth concerning braz rosewood is about Rio rosewood or rio palisander (Dalberghia Nigra) and nothing else. The rest is just brownish heavy wood from South America.
its AMAZINGLY illegal. Its been forbidden for decades to chop the trees. And you can only buy the wood legally if it has papers (CITES) Also you can only sell guitars legally legally if it has papers. Try importing a guitar to the USA with Braz rosewood and no CITES and you´ll find out.
You can of course think that you dont care about the environmental situation in Brazil and you can also think that you dont care about these laws and rules. BUT then, please, accept that you cant care about environmental issues where you live and you cant expect people to follow the laws and rules that you find to be important.
There´s an amazing amount of cheating going on when it comes to Braz rosewood and its on all levels including wood cutters, wood dealers and musical instrument makers. All kinds of brownish wood from South America can be found and sold as Braz rosewood.
I know about makers that even though they bought wood called “Caviuna”, they made and sold guitars and said it was Braz rosewood.
Very few persons know how to distinguish the real thing from all the fake. Those of us who have only had a few sets in our hands, we know nothing and can just pray that we havent been cheated and that some dude who bought our Braz rosewood guitar wont send us a lawsuit if its found out that it was Jacaranda or Caviuna we sold under a false name.
Even the specialists find it hard to to distinguish the real thing from fake. Not so many years ago, Maderas Barber in Valencia sold a very pretty wood called Caviuna. It totally looked like high grade Braz rosewood with spider webbing and a deep chocolate color. The authorities blocked the sale of the wood while they were taking DNA tests of the wood. They found out that it was NOT Braz rosewood, so at least Bareber had not been wrong, but it only shows how difficult it is even for experts to see the difference.
I´ve made 3 Braz rosewood guitars and I wont make more. It should be obvious why. The wood I bought pretty cheap on a sale that California based Allied Luhiery had almost 10 years ago. I took the sets to a well known builder who had built several guitars with Braz (Rio) rosewood back in the “good old days”. He told me he coundnt say 100% what it was, but he was pretty sure it was Rio. Allied sold it as “Stump Wood” claiming it didn´t need CITES, but the wood arrived without any papers saying that, so judge yourselves. I just know that the different custom authorities dont care at all about stories. They want paper and nothing else. No correct papers, and you´re out.
Besides that, Braz rosewood is a nice tonewood, but its just a piece of wood and there´s absolutely nothing magical about it. I dont even think its better than many other tonewoods. Its pretty heavy, which I personally dont like to much for flamencos, and its VERY unstable.
To be totally honest, its a piece of wood for the guitar snobs. Those who think they are so extremely important persons that only the most extreme piece of wood is good enough for them. You know these kind of guys who cant accept to drive a Ford or a Toyota when they go to work, but something a lot “finer”.
Well said Anders. I'm in full agreement with you.
If you're offered 'Brazilian Rosewood' you should not buy it. Its almost certainly illegal.
The trade in rare woods is so lucrative you can be sure that criminal gangs are involved. From the illegal logging, transport, sawing, to paperwork. It can all be done illegally.
There are two ways to get what you want if you are trading illegally; bribery or intimidation. It seems likely that both these methods are used in this trade.
So lets just forget Brazilian Rosewood. Its gone. Lets move on.
_____________________________
Kevin Richards
http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
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Date Oct. 7 2013 10:24:53
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Jim Kirby)
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I don't want to drop a political bomb on this, but I agree with Anders and Kevin Richards.
Say what you want, or what you will about Brazilian rosewood as a guitar wood. Put your own spin to it, make your own choices and use your ears objectively. It's good wood, everyone agrees.
When it comes to the politics for this wood, it's dirty. Dirtier than most. This species is like a diamond; it's value is constructed around a false economy. The value of this species is not based on it's real use value as a guitar makers wood, it based on it's trade value as a rare commodity.
CITES documents do not mean a whole lot in the context of the false economy built around this wood. As a rare commodity this wood is protected by a military police force in Brazil. It is not difficult to understand what that means in terms of who is granted documents and who is not. It's about money and selling the wood to who can afford to buy a rare wood that is simply over priced and over harvested.
That said if a guitar maker had a collection of this wood and they wanted to build with it instead of sell it to pay for their kids college tuition, so be it. It's good wood, who could contest that? Tom is right, to have collected it a long time ago is not a thing to shame someone over. Today this species is a commodity loaded with political meaning and problems, but 20 years ago it was not as salient an issue.
I had a supply of it for bridges I bought pre CITES. I like this wood to make bridges. When that run of wood was gone I had no interest in acquiring more. And I have the connections to get a lot of it. Knowing what I know about the supply chain to get this commodity, I'm simply not interested.
Let me put into perspective. I joke around about orange Conde's and how much that modern Conde' orange finish annoys me. I'd take a bright orange Conde' over a Brazilian rose wood guitar any day and sleep like a baby.
BTW Welcome back Elvis, nice to have you in the building again.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 7 2013 11:54:53
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Jim Kirby)
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Don't blame environmentalists for the elevation in price of Brazilian rosewood. It's a commodity now, it's traded not for it's real use value, but for it's false inflated value as a rare item. Only its like diamonds, it's rarity is manipulated and managed to maximize the profit of the few who can control it.
The problem I have with Brazilian rosewood is not environmental, it cold be grown on plantations like Indian rosewood, which in fact is being done with pernambuco. It's not identification, although it has become a point of contention and the high priced commanded by Brazilian guitars have led to dishonest attribution and identification in the dealer business. Our own Giacomo has a story about that.
It's not even that the US and EU restrict the movement and sale of this wood. The problem I have with it is that those who do the work, the loggers, truck drivers, sawyers and laborers don't get paid a commensurate wage based on the sale value of this wood. They get used like diamond miners to do the heavy dangerous work and they get bad pay. The people with power to manipulate government officials or government officials themselves buy certificates of approval and make the money based on the ability to grant approval to move the product.
Other species that are more plain or not thought of as "exotic" don't have a high discrepancy between laborers wages for doing the real work and the final sale value as the material crosses borders. There is broker mark up, but everyone one has to make money, but not the grossly unfair markup of Brazilian rosewood. If you look back into the history of Brazilian forestry, you'll find foresters who tried to implement fair wage policies for workers and grow these rarer woods on farms so they would not become scarce and could continue to be more moderately priced goods with a moderate competitive market value. it would mean the families of the loggers would have a stake, the sawyers, the truckers, the Brazil end shippers.
These are environmentalists, they should not be blamed for your troubles with this precious boutique wood which signifies the buyer is a rich person who wants a rare item to show their wealth. Every time one of the real environmentalists rises up in Brazil and tries to change the power structure of who controls the rain forest they get murdered. They get killed for trying to manage the forest.
Read about Chico Mendez the Brazilian forester and environmentalist who was killed 25 years ago. Brazilian rosewood is a luxury item when it crosses borders and it's bloody. Nothing really awesome about it.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Oct. 8 2013 0:32:05
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jshelton5040
Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
It's not even that the US and EU restrict the movement and sale of this wood. The problem I have with it is that those who do the work, the loggers, truck drivers, sawyers and laborers don't get paid a commensurate wage based on the sale value of this wood.
Stephen,
I have no knowledge of the state of loggers, truck drivers, etc. in South America. I suspect they get paid a commensurate salary to US workers doing the same job.
I do know that the local loggers, log truck drivers and others associated with the wood industry are a about as far from environmentalists as you can get. These are the people who litter the local highways with beer cans, Burger King wrappers and other detritus that conscientious people would never dream of dumping on this pristine environment. They leave piles of beer cans and expended firearm cartridges scattered about in the old growth forests, they change the oil on their equipment and dump in on the ground, they leave old tires and worn out parts from their equipment laying where they were changed and all the broken components from the logging right where they lay. When we moved onto our lovely piece of land we had to deal with many lengths of cable that were wrapped around trees and half buried in the ground as well as used brake shoes, old tires and other truck parts. These are the people who go into a breathtakingly beautiful old growth forest and devastate it with their heavy equipment and then walk away leaving the cost of the erosion, washouts, etc. for the taxpayers to pick up. I live in the Siuslaw National forest and see on a regular basis what these slime bags do to the environment. There's nothing admirable about these people and they deserve to be paid minimum wage at best. If I had my way there would be some regulations to prevent loggers from doing so much destruction to the environment but unfortunately money talks and BS walks. Sorry to sound so negative but a bunch of these scum just destroyed my favorite Chanterelle mushrooming spot. 
_____________________________
John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
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Date Oct. 8 2013 1:26:26
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