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RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

Two things that are certain:

In the violin world Nagivari has been shown to be a poor investigator.
And violin varnish and wood preparation has been proven to be a bigger factor in sound than one might think. So let's begin there.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2014 15:25:16
 
Ruphus

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Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras


Ah, but I think holding the stick over the fire does affect the interior as well as the surface, where as the varnish only sits on the surface. For sure--at least with guitars, which I am familiar with--the varnish affects the resonating properties. It's just not that important what it's made of. (Yes, I am saying that nitrocellulose lacquer sounds as good as shellac!) Moreover, I believe that on violins the wood is thicker, so the effect is diminished.


Sounds plausible.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 11 2014 17:04:29
 
estebanana

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

It always strikes me as strange that there is so much fuss over violin varnishes, because the varnish is so thin compared to the wood and furthermore much of the varnish is worn off those great old violins anyway. Okay, the varnish looks nice; that effect should be easy to duplicate. But researching the varnish to try to capture the sound is to me barking up the wrong tree.


Ethan, and anyone interested in varnish talk,

This is not what most people are doing. The research on violin varnish is due to the fact that the pine resin-cooked oil varnishes that are intact dating from 300 years ago are still very resilient to darkening and structural failure. While more modern varnishes have discoloration issues and can fail structurally over time. Also the colors and dichroic effects on the older violins can be achieved by using these older varnish recipes.

Mainly violin makers today are looking for a Dichroic varnish that has layers of different colors that shine together and also create two or three colors on the wood. This can be done by layering colored varnishes over colored grounds and is an important part of making violins that are in character with older classical Italian work.

That said, in short, guitars and violins have different needs and reactions to varnishing. Almost all competent violin makers will say the sound is created by the structure of the violin, but there is also a big factor in how the varnish and it's composition modifies and filters the sound. The varnish on a violin does have an effect on sound, and it's been well documented by before and after sound tests with and with and without varnish. Varnish has a damping effect, not much but enough to moderate the sound a bit. The question is not does varnish really shape the sound, but how does to change the sound in a subtle way? Mainly too much varnish is bad because it dampens too much, but some varnish does help tame certain parts of overtone series and emphasize others.

I have used varnish shellac and lacquer on guitars and I think each finish has a slightly different character in how it effects the high partials, but not so much that it is a really big deal. Of the three ways I've done finishing I heard the spar varnished guitars as having more effect on the overtones, at least in the beginning before the varnish hardened over several months or years. But I don't think it's big deal on guitars as long as the finish is not excessively thick.

Violins and guitars are really different systems in how the string is activated and while the logic of how one works seems like it might fit the other, lots of it does not directly translate. What might make a guitar go well might not work for a violin. They are just different structures, but since they are made of wood there is some connection.

_______

But all this is a separate conversation. It's quite off topic to sharing guitar pictures. It's also difficult to talk about violin varnish because there is so much speculation by nonmakers that gets mixed up with actual known knowledge by vetted investigators who have published good research on the subject. In the last five to ten years state of the art optical scanning and chemical analysis have been used to break down the components in violin varnish on period instruments and the information is out there to read. There are also several really good modern varnish makers creating cooked pine resin-oil varnishes that are on par with classic Italian varnish. So it's difficult to have a conversation on this if everyone is not on the same page in regards to what the current common knowledge is. It becomes less a conversation than a frustration of correcting previously held beliefs and looking like a smarty pants know it all. But the information about varnish is pretty much out there in the violin forums for free. I've been following the discussions of the best of the best people in varnish research for about five years now. A couple of days of reading the many varnish conversations on Maestronet and other forums and downloading the supplemental PDF files about varnish making and history would give a good solid background in the issues.

I do think it is beyond the topic and scope of this particular guitar show and tell thread, which I hope does not turn into morass of misinformation and gross speculation.

S.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 14 2014 6:26:12
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 667
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

I do like it when you talk dirty about Dichroic finishes Stephen! Last time you posted on this I took the trouble to read up about it.

Sadly I have no expertise to offer on finishing techniques. I do however dislike cruelty to wood whether it be the local antique dealers stripping old furniture to refinish it in a blemish free garish orange fp just like repro, the potential loss of good wood when my father-in-law’s house was finally sold with a collection of rare hardwood he had inherited from his uncle who had been cabinet maker/ restorer or finishes that mask the natural beauty of wood.

I am interested in the effects of finish on sound. Of course the perceived sound is notoriously difficult to investigate. I suppose the question “does it make a difference?” is easier to investigate than “what kind of difference does it make?” I presume that your observations on the difference are based on making and handling instruments. So, to add to this here is my experience.

The year: 2003.

The place: shop of a major (in volume) Spanish producer of expensive guitars (nameless to prevent this thread to from wandering)

The experiment: trying out a pile of cypress/spruce guitars (all the same model) – some finished in French polish and the rest in lacquer. There were at least 5 each of each type of finish – I don’t remember the exact numbers.

The outcome: In my perception there was consistent difference in sound between the two types of finish, so much so that I could pick the finish with my eyes closed.

Further thoughts: The problem is that I find it difficult to describe the difference. I would like to say that the fp guitars were “brighter”, but this would not be helpful as I am reluctant to describe the lacquer guitars as “duller”. Any way by using the conceptual metaphor “bright guitar” I have to accept all its limitations as a means of communication to others.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 15 2014 15:35:03
 
estebanana

 

Posts: 7502
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

I posted a sound sample of the blanca the previous page here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=265603&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#265603

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2014 2:32:25
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to RobJe

quote:

The year: 2003.

The place: shop of a major (in volume) Spanish producer of expensive guitars (nameless to prevent this thread to from wandering)

The experiment: trying out a pile of cypress/spruce guitars (all the same model) – some finished in French polish and the rest in lacquer. There were at least 5 each of each type of finish – I don’t remember the exact numbers.

The outcome: In my perception there was consistent difference in sound between the two types of finish, so much so that I could pick the finish with my eyes closed.

Further thoughts: The problem is that I find it difficult to describe the difference. I would like to say that the fp guitars were “brighter”, but this would not be helpful as I am reluctant to describe the lacquer guitars as “duller”. Any way by using the conceptual metaphor “bright guitar” I have to accept all its limitations as a means of communication to others.

Rob


Interesting, thanks for sharing your experience. One very rarely gets to do experiments like that, with a big enough sample size to even begin to control for variation between individual guitars.
Luthiers who have switched between finishes at some point in their careers could also probably make a pretty informed judgement. Personally I have no idea what my guitars would sound like with lacquer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2014 22:44:43
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Here's a just-completed Spruce/Indian negra! Pictures soon.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 26 2014 22:46:15
 
tijeretamiel

 

Posts: 437
Joined: Jan. 6 2012
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

Andy you have a bald face :(

Nice sounding negra though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2014 11:17:25
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

I know... and I even cut my hair. Sorry to disappoint my fan base :/









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2014 16:31:39
 
Joan Maher

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Very Nice Andy..

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Gracias!


Joan Josep Maher
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2014 8:29:56
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Aesthetically and sonically a very beautiful guitar...your playing is solid too.
BTW: nice haircut.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2014 13:09:01
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks Joan and Dennis!
I feel like I should start the "luthiers share your beauty tips" thread

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2014 13:46:10
 
estebanana

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

How is that nut file shaping working for you?

Beauty fer shur.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2014 15:22:12
 
Andy Culpepper

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Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks Stephen. I like to hollow out the back of the nut slot so that the string is only sitting on 2 or 3 mm of bone. I find it's easier to make sure the string is sitting right in the nut and avoid little buzzes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2014 0:27:37
 
estebanana

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Do you get any complaints that it does not look standard? I do that for the D string in seven string guitars to allow it to make the slight turn it takes in order to reach tuner.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2014 2:03:19
 
LandKGuitars

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper

padauk back and side, anrondack spruce top, maple bindings





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L & K Guitars
http://www.landkspanishguitars.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2014 16:41:39
 
LandKGuitars

 

Posts: 19
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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

padauk back and side, anrondack spruce top, maple bindings





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2014 16:43:10
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Do you get any complaints that it does not look standard? I do that for the D string in seven string guitars to allow it to make the slight turn it takes in order to reach tuner.


No complaints so far

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2014 16:53:28
 
Edzard

 

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Nice rosette Andy!

What kind of wood did you use for the red/yellow in the middle ring?



Best regards,



Edzard
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2014 8:15:01
 
LandKGuitars

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to LandKGuitars

p



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L & K Guitars
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2014 16:34:43
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Edzard

quote:

Nice rosette Andy!

What kind of wood did you use for the red/yellow in the middle ring?



Best regards,



Edzard


Thanks Edzard! It's Padauk and Mahogany in the center and Bloodwood in the outer rings.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 1:19:08
 
Lorenzo714

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Joined: Oct. 8 2013
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to LandKGuitars

Nice looking guitar Mr L & K

Do you have a web or any way of providing me any more info on your guitars?

Thanks,

Lorenzo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 2:38:26
 
LandKGuitars

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Lorenzo714

i have some people making a new website as soon as is finish i let you know

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L & K Guitars
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 16:57:36
 
LandKGuitars

 

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Joined: Oct. 23 2014
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Lorenzo714

this are from a blanca that i am working on top thickness will be 1.7 mm german spruce back and side port oxford cedar 2.mm thiknes







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 17:05:34
 
jshelton5040

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to LandKGuitars

quote:

ORIGINAL: LandKGuitars

this are from a blanca that i am working on top thickness will be 1.7 mm german spruce back and side port oxford cedar 2.mm thiknes


Wow! 1.7 mm top that's thin. Have you actually built 302 guitars?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 23:04:36
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to jshelton5040

I built a great sounding Santos classical with a 1.7 to 1.8 top back in the eighties with an Engelmann spruce top that Robert Guthrie played for 8 years. Excellent tone.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2014 23:28:58
 
Sr. Martins

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RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Those pics, IMO, don't work on your favour.

Lots of things aren't looking symmetrical
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2014 0:39:52
 
LandKGuitars

 

Posts: 19
Joined: Oct. 23 2014
 

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to jshelton5040

i have built 2mm tops and the 1.7 have better sound, yes i have building by m self for 13yr and before that with some company that i dont want to mention name

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L & K Guitars
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2014 1:49:54
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Flamenca negra recently completed!

The sound is still a bit green but I think it's my favorite negra that I've made. Lots of power, clarity, and depth.











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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2014 15:46:26
 
Wayne Brown

 

Posts: 124
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From: Huntersville, North Carolina, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana

Lovely guitar! Great sound!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2014 17:40:25
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