RE: "Luthiers share your creations" thread

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estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to HolyEvil)

Yes that is a direct rendition of the famous 1951 Barbero bracing pattern. Which only means it's as good as you can make it work. I think it works here, but it's not the only way to go.

One of the things about that pattern is it leaves a lot a space between the bridge wings and the edges of the lower bouts. I think you have to mind how you handle that area because t is unsupported and in previous attempts at that pattern about five years ago I made that area too weak. I think it helps to have a fairly stiff top to leave that area open.

And this guitar and other guitars I've made with that pattern are all good, but not exactly like the 51 Barbero. I think of bracing patterns like chess openings, you can learn them, but you can't really rely on them to take care of everything, you have to play the middle and end game on your own. And every game turns out different and fascinating.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 11:53:33

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Nice guitar, Stephen, and your cell phone camera works well. This gives me hope.

How do you like your new digs? I would definitely need a western chair to sit in, as if I got down on the floor, it would be hard to get up :-)

I like your sound and I hope you continue to build in this mode. I tried one Port Orford cedar top on a flamenco and it works...good stability.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 11:55:56

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Hey Tom, the back and sides are Port Orford- I've never used it for a top.

I have a Western chair, but I find sitting on the floor ok most of the time. I either stand or sit on the floor most of the time. Or lay on the floor because I drank too much.

I raised one work bench to something like 43" or 45" high so I would n ot have to bend over so much when doing frets, set up and French polish and stuff like that. I still have a lower table for planing, you just can't plane that high at 45".

My favorite part of the shop is the wall next to the bookshelf were I have a yoga mat and a few pillows and take a 20 minute nap after lunch. I dream about TexMex food and pizza. I remember you're not a fan of the raw fish, they have some wonderful cooked fish dishes here. And yesterday this guy caught two 45 cm sea bass off the jetty right in front of my eyes. But all the old guys were not impressed, they say seabass is not a good fish to eat. They are spoiled here and only brag on certain fish as the best. I caught a large Fugu, you know the poisonous one? There are two kinds of fugu, one kind is common and the other is poisonous, you have to have a special license to prepare it. I threw the Fugu back to kill another gaijin next year.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:18:39

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to HolyEvil)

Had to overcome the censoring to finally listen to a flamenca of yours, Stephen.

You disappoint me.
I was expecting a relatively shallow and slow guitar for the beach.
But the surprisingly well captured cell-phone track ( you might only next time reduce input some db to allow more dynamics / prevent digital overs) revealed what sure sounds like a highly responsive geetar.

The darn VPN didn´t let me audition the way wanted, but I think things are well balanced with the upper register coming through nicely.

For my personal taste I would prefer the setup to introduce a tad more rasp.

It seems a fine instrument, and unless you fail with the ol´ marketing efforts the Japanese should discover your shop - with the exotic builder. ( Have you tried yet meeting some popular players there?)

And not at last: You are understating the playing skills. Your technique is advanced and the rasgueados trickling in well separated and evenly.

Another builder of flamencas who is a player too.
I doubt builders of classical guitars to be as often players in the same time.

Olé, good bench, sir!

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 14:45:13

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

One of the things about that pattern is it leaves a lot a space between the bridge wings and the edges of the lower bouts. I think you have to mind how you handle that area because t is unsupported and in previous attempts at that pattern about five years ago I made that area too weak. I think it helps to have a fairly stiff top to leave that area open.

I think thats why Barbero also started working with a bridge patch going allmost all the way across the lower bout. A thing you can see Reyes has worked with as well and me to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 15:01:12

koenie17

Posts: 438
Joined: Feb. 25 2011
From: España

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

I used the Barbero bracing for my last guitar just without the slanted brace.
Im quite happy with the sound so I will definately try this pattern again. Very interesting what you say about the unsupported area between the wings and the lower bouts. I´ll keep that in mind for the next one, What would you guys use for the bridgebar Cedar or Spruce?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 16:23:42

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I´ll keep that in mind for the next one, What would you guys use for the bridgebar Cedar or Spruce?

Either. Spruce might be stiffer, but each will work and also cedro if cut right.

That guitar does not have a bridge patch or how you say properly a contra puente. Is has a stiff enough top to go without. That is what I meant about the chess opening analogy- A bracing pattern can't be followed blindly, you have to feel your way through it several times to be able to read how each top will work with it an make decisions about flexibility and local areas of support.

I think that Barbero pattern is an excellent basis to begin with, but when I first tried it in the late 90's and then again a few years ago, I was more hit and miss with how the guitars turned out. They turned out to be good guitars in most cases. One was a real dog and one a nice guitar with not much power, the rest were average. I have a better feel for things in general and the open area I mentioned does not worry me now.

What Anders says makes sense about the contrapuente and support, but on the Brune' drawing of the 51' it shows the bridge patch only under the bridge leaving that wing to bout area more open. So even Barbero did not treat it the same way every time. Brune' kind of implied even that on the 51 the patch is just going along for the ride. :)

It's been consistent for me that if you stiffen that area under the bridge and keep the five fan spread close under the bridge you get grainy-growly sounding guitars. The difficulty is handling the feel under the right hand by making the guitar not to hard- tough or not too weak.

One more thing, I have come to see the closing braces in the lower bouts to be something I do not want to be without. I find the "chess openings", or brace patterns on flamencos with out the diagonal lower bout braces to be more difficult to make them work. They work very well, but I'm not going to make them anymore, I'm kind of done with experiments for the flamencos as far as that open or closed lower bout is concerned. The diagonals make too much sense and I find it hard to get the top stable without them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 20:33:10

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks Ruphus, very kind of you. I can send you the file direct next time if you can receive them.

You're actually too kind because I don't practice any longer, as l've said I get back pain. I feel like I have been caught in the same mannerisms with the same material for a sometime because i have not taken lessons. I need to muster few new good falsetas in solea. Rasgueado has always been something I do ok. But I don't in any way consider myself a guitarist, compas has never been my strong point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 20:34:45

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen,

I built this Brune plan of the Barbero years ago and it took me two months to fine tune it. I don't care for this much trouble on any guitar, but I have to say it sold by the Brune shop to a player in two weeks. Actually, Richard wanted to keep it for his collection but I pleaded with him to sell it retail as I needed the money.

This is the only picture I have of this unfinished copy of the Barbero but it is not a slavish copy except for the inside.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 22:55:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Here are some pictures of my present build 2014......

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 23:39:34

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Tom,
I see you have a substantial bridge patch and more support in front of the end block. That must be important on the bracing pattern without the closing braces in the lower bout.

I've tried all these schemes with and without the bridge patch, they work both ways, but there are little differences. I bet if I did the straight ahead 7 fan with the substantial bridge patch as you have it it would work better. it seems like part of your method is to build slightly robustly and then pare it back with your tuning. Am I correct?

Right now I'm continuing on this track with the exact Barbero bracing, but not because it's Barbero for the name, but because I made a nice easy to use template for laying out the braces. The next one will be nice like this one, I'm going dare to make it slightly thinner.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 1:29:56

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

TomB, What is the dimensions of your bridge strap (thats what I call it in order to not confuse it with a contra puente/Bridge patch) It also seems to be going closer to the sides of the guitar than the bridge strap on the Reyes plan. But I might remember wrong there. I have the plan, but I cant find it at the moment.

Here you have a picture of mine. Its only 10 x 1mm and its tapered from the outer braces down to 0mm at the end points. The reason I use it is to control the shape of the soundboard (I´ve seen quite a few guitars where the soundboard was sinking down near the edges) I´ve built +100 guitars with a strap like that, so its also an important part of my sound.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 8:18:53

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I don't practice any longer, as l've said I get back pain.

I suppose lower back?
For acute prevention have you tried yet pulling your right foot under the chair?
Also if you can arrange for exercises like in the pic, chances are that your back will improve soon. ( If you got some square wood you could build your own stand.[?])

Asides of the fact, naturally, that sitting is a bad position anyway. In respect of both ergonomics and musical sensation / execution.

You wouldn´t believe how playing upright works, once you got adapted to what appears more challenging at first. ( It takes a couple of days until you find that the flexible suspension actually helps confidence with posture / planting.)

It should not be of the common 2-point strap suspension, however.
Instead a harness that shall allow for a centered one-point suspension.

I have taken a sax harness and replaced its spring hook with a flamenco sound hole hook. Works perfectly.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 9:31:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen,

I have found that a flat style top works better with the Barbero and the little shims between the fan braces on my style are to keep the top from wrinkling at the bottom due to its lack of cross stiffeners and thin, 2 MM top thickness.

And the braces are basically made the correct size and tuned very slightly with 400 sand paper. After a while playing with it you get to know what works on the strut sizes and shapes.

Due to the fact that the Barbero pattern is stiff in the center, it should be thinned under the bridge if needed for the proper flex. This was done on some of the older Conde guitars that had the Faustino style.

I always string my guitars up in the white and adjust the top thickness as needed, either on the edges while the bridge is on or under the bridge after I take the bridge off for the final finish. Then, I adjust the struts after everything is together and played for a few days.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 12:40:41

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders,

I build the strap the same size as the Reyes and adjust some of the braces to my own ideal but with-in the same motif.

Notice the Harmonic bars at the sound hole.

I always build with a flat top now, with just a little curve on the bridge.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 12:51:56

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

ok. Thank you.
Any special reason that the harmonic bars are equal thickness all the way over?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 15:54:43

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

ok. Thank you.
Any special reason that the harmonic bars are equal thickness all the way over?

Santos was built this way and I've learned that it gives an edge to the sound in co-operation with thinning the top under the bridge area. However, not all tops respond to this treatment.

I can raise the height of the struts and lower the height of the cross bars and get a similar effect, but not so much brightness, as with stiffness caused by the higher fan braces.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2014 17:00:06

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Tom,

I feel like Colombo, "Just one more question sir" - I sometimes keep the horizontal bars flat on top too. But if I do I don't put huge pillar on top of it, unless it's a classical. For a flamenco I use a regular glue block.

You ever work with stiffening the ribs around the horizontal braces? I do that with big triangular pillars on top of them, it seems to introduce a kind of stability to the structure, but for some reason, ( my perception) is tat it makes flamencos too stiff.

When you thin under the bridge you presumably do that before putting on the strap or bridge patch, correct? Do you feel it allows the bridge to move more freely, but still keeps the field of the top stiffer and stronger so it does not lose power?

Many years ago I read your page in the GAl publication on thinning under the bridge, but I did not understand exactly how you were doing it, the concept merited more space.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2014 0:15:28

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

When you thin under the bridge you presumably do that before putting on the strap or bridge patch, correct? Do you feel it allows the bridge to move more freely, but still keeps the field of the top stiffer and stronger so it does not lose power?

Jose Rubio, many years ago with his presentation in Canada, talked about raising or lowering the top's frequency: lowering it by sanding in the middle of the top and raising it by sanding around the edges.

The sanding in the middle did several things, one was improving the string torque against the top and causing the articulation to tighten up with a snap from side to side rather than having the strings bounce up and down.

Reyes did this with his strut modulation techniques, without having to take too much off the top thickness around the middle area under the bridge.

Sanding in the middle is an old flamenco technique that some of the masters used to use to tighten up the action. The idea is to feather the thinning very little and see how much the guitar is going to require, before you do more.

I became very efficient with removing bridges, sometimes up to 5 times, before I learned what a guitar top would take to make it perform well. And it seems that guitar tops are the main source of communication as long as we keep the back and sides thin enough to give it good vibrations.

And I build the top all together with its pattern, strap, and all the struts and install it, and then work from there on the outside for top thinning.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2014 2:57:51

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Small Torres (604 scale).

Lutz top, Cypress back/sides and neck. Planetary pegs.

Regards,

Edzard

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2014 7:44:22

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Cool. How does it sound?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2014 7:45:33

Edzard

Posts: 20
Joined: Oct. 11 2010
From: Eindhoven - The Netherlands

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Thanks. The sound is (surprisingly) very good. Almost like a "normal" guitar. Strong bass, good projection. The height is only 70 mm. The bridge is glued on with the LMII vacuum clamp. Coudn't get my hands/clamps through the soundhole. If the guitar was a few mm smaller I had to make a smaller vacuum clamp!

I made this guitar for my oldest son (13 years). A 650 scale is too big for him.

It's a hug-able guitar. Nice playing on the sofa..

Regards,

Edzard

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2014 20:00:37

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Did you have any particular Torres in mind or is this a study based on his work in general ?

Small guitars can have a lots of power, the sound board is smaller but that also means not as much surface to activate with almost the same string power. I've got a 640 scale Torres neck ready build with, just waiting to get through some other projects.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2014 0:09:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1694
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I just completed this blanca for a client. The rosette was a new combination of elements.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2014 16:58:49

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

B e a u t i f u l!

You guys build axes I could buy for the looks alone.
- If I had the money for doing so, naturally.
Bravo!

Ruphus

PS:
In regard of that handsome rosette ...
Why do I have the feeling as if we contemporaries were so much better at combining colours than our grandfathers? ( With their combo of green & blue and what have you ...)
If you add now that at that time there was not nearly such a choice of colors with dies, lest even with loud ones, me will have to admit to that, I guess.

PS2:

Just enlarged the image. And what did I see instead of the turqoise background in the originally appearing image?
BLUE & GREEN! That was funny!

... Though separated through red, which does make good for a difference.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2014 17:24:10

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Thats a good rosette, I usually don'tl like red and blue opposed, but I'm convinced in that one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 13 2014 22:03:50

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Beautiful rosette Ethan!

Attached my latest negra, a tribute to Paco and Faustino Conde.
Center rosette motif from Faustino that Paco had on several of his guitars.

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Guitarras Artesanas Españolas
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2014 0:29:20

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Very handsome too, Jorge!
And I like that Conde rosette. It has the charme of Indio work from Peru, I think.
Did you manufacture it yourself?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2014 10:01:33

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to estebanana)

Jorge's plantilla is the elegant part. That is nice outline.

But you guys what's the big idea with cool rosettes? You realize this means everyone else is going to have to work harder now...gee thanks. I thought i could skate by with concentric circles forever now I have to reinvent myself instead of drink beer.

Beer BTW makes you fat.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 14 2014 10:45:29

El Polaco

Posts: 155
Joined: Sep. 29 2005
From: Singer Island - Florida

RE: "Luthiers share your creati... (in reply to Ruphus)

Thanks Ruphus! Yes I made it myself. The main central motif is 11x11 and .5mm x .5mm squares.
I used Norman's rosette program to do the original design. Saves drawing up squares and using colored pencils etc...
I have the whole process documented in photographs if anybody is interested in seeing it. Stephen and Andy have both documented it well too.
The hard part was doing that super sharp angled herringbone on the inner and outer edges!
Thanks Stephen. It's basically Faustino shape with that tight waist bend. It curves immediately coming out of the waist to the lower bout with no flat spot at that point.