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Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar
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bartstenhouse
Posts: 5
Joined: Oct. 11 2012
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 Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar
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Hi Everyone,
I am new to Foroflamenco and am so thrilled about my new Anders Eliasson guitar (purchased in Spain about 5 weeks ago) that I wanted to share my thoughts on this wonderful instrument with other people out there thinking of buying a new flamenco guitar in Spain!
I have been studying with a great teacher here in Australia for a while now and after searched extensively online decided to travel right across Spain in search of a good flamenco guitar (and some lessons whilst I was at it)! I stumbled onto this forum and Anders Eliasson a short while afterwards. I researched as many luthiers as I could, but I kept coming back to Ander's websites for some reason. I guess maybe his guitars had the sound I was searching for.
I organised to visit him right at the end of my trip (before entering Portugal) and planned to play as many other instruments of all price ranges as I could in person beforehand. I played some in Barcelona which were very ordinary to say the least and then some in Granada and Selvilla at various places that were quite good for the money, but they all didn't have the great tone, playability and attack that the Eliasson 2A had (from his videos reels of the instrument online).
Once we arrived at his place in Beas (after he most graciously picked my fiance and I up from our hotel in Huelva) we said our introductions and he bought out the guitar for me to inspect. The sound as I first starting playing it was amazing, just simply stunning! It was effortless to play, so light to hold, had a great tone etc. So I bought it on the spot! The case he provided was excellent too (Thomann) and survived numerous train and bus journeys as well as 4 international flight legs home back to Australia with not even a single scratch on it! Customs was no problem either and didn't even get me to open the case on arrival (I declared the guitar purchase and took my chances with the import duty for those interested).
Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts with you all, as I am completely in awe of this guitar and love everything about it. Feel free to ask any questions if you are thinking of buying one of Ander's guitars and I'll happily answer them!
Also, I know there are a lot of other great luthiers in Spain and around the world, I just wanted to share my experiences with others thinking of doing the same. Highly recommend it!
Thanks guys, looking forward to exploring the forum more!
Best regards,
Bart Stenhouse
Music Producer/Film Composer
Brisbane, Australia
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Date Oct. 11 2012 3:25:35
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to bartstenhouse)
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I dig reviews of delight, and in cases like this just the more.
Only think it a pity for countless of other purchases, where people spend the same or even considerably more for a serial production student guitar. Unaware of the opportunity offered with a number of luthiers here who enable finest instruments, full of personality at a price level you will hardly experience in a common shop situation.
I have suggested it before:
There should be ways to support the foros artisans ( and possibly others of comparable proficiency ) by a dedicated portal for flamenco guitars. Realizing a choice basically different from your average shopping experience.
- And maybe besides also for accessoirs like those neck straps with soundhole hooks that are so scarcely to be found.
Roughly maintaining current quality / price ratio such a website could be rocketing in the long run.
Definitly, I think, considering the assortment that you come across out there in the stores average 2-5 grand shelves.
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If for instance, Simon was willing to spend his time in building such a mediating portal as a sub site under the forum´s logo, I am willing to bet that over time it could provide him with a pretty nice supplementary income.
I suppose the foro to be no midget anymore in the world of flamenco, serving already as a review ressource ( personally I came accross it while looking for fellow clients of a certain luthier ) / hence, coming in only optimal as router to a hypothetical foro shop.
 And that sincerely without BS and spam, mind you!
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 11 2012 15:50:08
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to bartstenhouse)
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Ok guys
Not in order to throw sand into your machines...
BUT, money and percentages is extremely important nowadays... We, the builders are in a very complicated situation now and I´m not sure that I will continue to build many more guitars. And I´m not the only one. Some have already scaled down, found second incomes or stopped.
I have been able to keep prices low because I dont use "middlemen" or shops. Some shops, like GSI take 50% but the norm is 30 - 35%. I´m not interested in that kind of business and I believe that we live in a world with way to many people making way to much money out of other peoples work.
Actually I shouldnt even be making 2A guitars. They are way to cheap. And I dont want to end up being a builder of second range guitars. I do it because the economical situation is the way it is and because I´m trying to survive.
I´ve been a member here for 9,5 years, and making guitars has been my sole income for 8 years. Its been tough in some periods.
Making good quality guitars and other instruments is something that takes a lot of dedication and it should be respected. If not, it´ll disappear and die.
If this site ends up promoting cheap handmade guitars by anyone who has made 5 copys, you might actually end up making the whole scene worse than it already is. And if this happens, I will disappear, delete my membership and my posts. And next time you go to Andalucia, I might be the one sitting in front of the supermarket together with my dog, with a cup in my hand, begging for money. 
So before you dream away to much, stop and think. Ask yourself why you should do anything. Is it because of money, then dont do it. There are already way to many vuitres.. If its because you want to do something good for the world, consider if you´re actually doing something good for anyone else than yourself and your own thoughts about yourself.
Last, Sorry for scamming your thread Bart.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Oct. 12 2012 8:29:43
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
I believe that we live in a world with way to many people making way to much money out of other peoples work.
Absolutely.
Just to make clear what I was imagening:
Deserved PR for makers of fine instruments and benefit for guitar buyers.
Actually competing and slicing off market shares of the established marketing of "making way to much money out of other peoples work".
Of a spirit like Simon´s, who has shown all but a creaming off with his forum, I predict that he would rather refrain from strangling any luthiers. A negligible fee, significantly below the percentage you named, might gratify him for the launch and conduct of such a unique guitar shop.
What should be occuring over time before all be growing publicity for you luthiers which will raise customer demand, stabilize your order situation and with that allow you gradual raise of price. All economic advantages uncomparable to the small fee left to Simon.
All in all it would be what you already benefited of through publicity with the forum; only much better yet than before.
As a fair trade project it should just as much benefit the guitar playing folks, who will be introduced to much better price / quality conditions than in common stores.
The only fraction not seeing advantage would be exactly the instances who are surcharging those 30-50%, boldly squeezing themselves between manufactury and consumer.
I think it shouldn´t be too hard to make a project of it that benefits all: Guitar builders, buyers and shop host / organizer.
- And if you want to be thankless, you can leave the foro shop once your name has gained a degree of international reputation that explodes waiting lists and guitar prices. But I actually estimate that you, Anders, wouldn´t do such.
...
If perfect you guys could even conduct it as sort of a cooperation, with luthier´s voice, who at some time could for instance vote whether they expect enough profits from certain enhanced marketing measures like say external banner placements to justify corresponding raise of shop fees or not. Etc.
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The obvious vision being the taking of the established market and channeling it to the fine people here.
The opposite of impoverishing luthiers and seeing them ragged.
Ruphus
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Date Oct. 12 2012 9:52:18
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KMMI77
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to bartstenhouse)
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Firstly hi Bart!
I was reading your other introduction thread also. It's always nice to have new members here. New thoughts, knowledge, Questions and opinions from new people adds more depth to this place. And makes it better IMO. I am also from Brisbane.
I started to learn flamenco guitar with my father 20 years ago. Since then I have played quite a lot around Brisbane, and have been fortunate enough to have travelled to Spain a few times. It certainly is an interesting experience going there from Australia. Are you originally from Australia?
It sounds like you have found yourself a nice guitar. With the limited selection available in Australia, Not to mention the added costs of importing, It's a great idea to buy one while your over there. I would enjoy having a try of your guitar sometime.
I have only had the opportunity to play one of Anders guitars, I can't recall the exact number, but I believe it was one of Anders earlier guitars. So it would be interesting for me to see how they have developed? I also have another guitarist friend who has some nice guitars. Perhaps all three of us could get together sometime? I have a few nice guitars that you could try as well.
Anders, I tend to agree with Ruphus. I believe a fair and beneficial arrangement could be discussed that benefitted all parties concerned. But, like you say, fair percentages are desired by everyone. I Believe that boils down to everyone being honest and fair. And working together for the benefit of the whole.
_____________________________
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Date Oct. 12 2012 11:55:33
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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The fact that guys like Bart can come here and offer such an inspiring critique of Anders' 2A model is a wonderful thing.
THIS is the type of thing that entirely convinces me. I bought my current guitar never having even tried a single example. It was miles and miles more expensive than guitars I've spent hours 'auditioning'. But, by the time I ordered, I knew that luthier put his soul into these things and his craftsmanship, and his art, was as good as it gets. I would 'never' have considered buying a guitar, or example thereof, that I hadn't tried, but I did, nonetheless.
If and when I buy a blanca I would be apoplectic trying to decide between Anders and Estebana, never having tried a single model a single time. I read these guys and know I'll get a guitar I love, and feel honoured to own it. No instructions from me... any size... blah... blah... just provide me with your daily work.... build it any way you want. Experiment or don't. (Unfortunately, my fantasies do not help to pay anyone's rent. And I'm not really a multiple-guitar guy. One is enough for me.) Make it as fast and fun to play as you can, that's all.
2,000 euros IS far far far too little. No doubt about it.
Around 6,000 US dollars seems, to me, equitable for a quality luthier-built guitar. And that's what I'd expect to pay either of those guys. If they did it for less then 5,000 dollars would be a floor. I can't figure how they can do it for less and live.
It's almost insanity that these guys are charging as little as this for guitars that are absolutely their real work, and not a watered-down version.
I've seen students at art school get this much for gobbing on a canvas.
My post was referring to an imaginary factory-built guitar where luthiers design and check quality, and really care. (And I know that 'factory built' has a wide interpretation.) Most companies, in the low price range, take the p i s s. They can make a thing almost like a good guitar but 'deliberately' don't instead.
But the market is the market, whatever the hell that means.
The unsolicted reviews that people can find here do matter. But the wider market needs 'names' playing their guitars, for real... because that's the guitar they want to play, not because of a 'deal'.
But people have to make a living. Everything I've read implies that luthiers are the ones always taking the hit, or the risk. It's comical that people talk about 'money', in this context, as it is so little it makes my eyes water.
But something that could be 'happening' or built when the luthier is done for the day would be an appropriate place for him to slice up some chunks for the good of everyone.
Just a thought. It's hard to get mindsets out of 'name' guitars. I've only tried one single Conde in my life, a negra, it was fantastic, really fantastic. I knew nothing about flamenco. I played the thing and loved it. It growled. It spoke to me. (I had no idea other people had said such things about these guitars.)
But I know the brand has been so watered-down by now that this experience might be quite rare.
The fact that Anders talks about building a luthier guitar that costs twice what I consider the low range seems almost surreal. Even a cursory consideration of overhead makes it seem almost impossible. And those are very nice guitars indeed, very nice. I cannot see what 2A has to do with it at all. It's a steal. (And you don't even have to sandpaper off some guitarist's name from behind the neck.)
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Date Oct. 13 2012 10:22:24
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Wonderful Anders 2A Flamenco Guitar (in reply to Stephen Eden)
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Is that how it's always done? Do dealers always pay up front for all of their stock?
Do they pay in full on order or do they put deposits down and pay the balance on delivery? Or do they 'take them' and pay the luthier after a sale? The mark-up on professional-level guitars seems steep to me. More like dealers get to hedge rather than speculate. There seems a lot of room in the price. What about if the dealer is gung-ho successful and takes orders years in advance? What happens with pricing? For example, one can 'buy' at 2,000 (order and pay 'up front') and sell at 10,000? It's a metaphorical, I know. But how much were Smallmans before Williams took a fancy to them?
Not suggesting anything bad or untoward in being a dealer. We all have to live. But imagine being a luthier and seeing your stuff go for twice the price you get, when one can only build maybe a couple a month, while a dealer can stock tons and tons, if he has the capital. Imagine one dealer handling twenty, thirty, fifty luthiers. Imagine they DO sell well (which is the reason one might do it in the first place). Would that change the dealer cut at all? Dealers have difficulties and overheads too but one can become a mushroom or auto dealer while the luthier cannot transfer his skills so directly to another sector.
There is risk and there is risk. It is the misconception that we can quantify and manipulate financial risk that caused the chaos now enveloping the global economy.
I would never buy from a dealer when I can buy from a luthier. Nothing against dealers but I like efficiency. I like ro pay as little as possible but the luthier get the most possible. (Luthier guitars are a lot to pay for but not a lot to get for building one.) Dealers introduce traction into a market and skew it this way or that, the way politicians and bankers can with economies. They may also create markets and do the things one expects from dealers... add liquidity, etc.
Again not an accusation just an observation on a general but real effect of inserting too many layers into a market. I get that luthiers, in theory, reach a wider market and don't have to put up with people driving them crazy. But they have to build all of the 'extra' guitars, by hand; they don't get to just pick up the phone and order them. It is forever 'piecework'.
The British 'artist' Damien Hirst ran his own auction for his stuff (that I wouldn't pay tuppence for but that's not the point here) and thus forced his dealer to buy his stuff in order to support the price. He also bought his own fifty-million dollar price-tagged crappy diamond skull himself... with the help of an 'investment company' (though the 'actual price paid', whatever that might mean, has not been divulged).
But the point is... a guy bought a guitar and is overjoyed with the purchase.
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Date Oct. 13 2012 18:24:19
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