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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco (in reply to chester)
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quote:
No matter how much mental control you have over your tiny movements, you're still going to get tired unless your muscles have enough endurance to keep up. Yes, and you still don't need a lot of strength, because strength and endurance are different things. Strength is the muscle's power to overcome weight or resistance. Playing a guitar string is always going to require the same force, and therefore the same strength, no matter whether you hit the string once or a hundred times in succession. Endurance (or stamina) is something else, the ability to keep exerting that same force repeatedly. It will depend on the build up of waste products in the muscles vs. the body's efficiency at removing them. quote:
You're right that you don't need to be able to deadlift 400 lbs in order to be able to play fast, but there is quite a bit of physical training involved. Even what you're referring to as 'mental', is actually physical. You can't just simply will yourself to play fast. I didn't mean that you need to be able to lift 400 lbs in order to be able to play fast, i meant you don't need the flexor and extensor muscles that move the fingers to be particularly big - for the reason above. Neither did I mean to imply that you can just will yourself to play fast and it will magically happen whenever you make a movement (except a reflex reaction, that's different and not relevant here) there is mental activity in the brain that ultimately sends a message via the nervous system to the muscle to tell it to contract. There is a lot of mental work involved in rapid and precise finger movements like picado. I'm not really into the idea of a mental vs. physical split, because they work together, but in the same way as the movement starts as brain activity, I think it's more important, as Ricardo has said, to focus on the development of the mental control necessary. While practising that the muscles will develop the necessary stamina as you say to "keep up".
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Date Sep. 27 2012 13:14:51
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)
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Yes, but the 'minimum movement' principle, because it sounds so rational, is almost always trotted out when 'efficiency' is mooted. I don't disagree about all the arguments in favour of minimum movement I just think that it's a bum steer for beginners. That is, there are more important things. Relaxation, for example. But we know that simply trying to relax or advising someone to relax will not induce the relaxation we mean when we are talking about playing guitar. Norman, for example cited his observation of the best players always using minimum movement. Unfortunately, that does nothing to get us there. And also I would suggest that the term 'rest stroke' though it seems identical to picado (indeed 'is' picado) is entirely different... Something of a paradox... But I played many years with minimum movement yet picado was simply impossible for me. Minimum movement 'seems' right. And there's nothing wrong with it. But it must come after picado... it will not take you to picado. If it did, then I would have arrived many years ago 'at' picado. All classical guitarists play with minimum movement but very few (or even 'none' that have not studied flamenco) can play something with the impact of a strong picado. The commonality is not minimum movement. That's why I'd suggest 'high and wide' or indeed any old way, as long as the result goes bip bip bip. The only thing that matters is that bip bip bip leads us to picado. It leads to relaxation, efficiency. It leads us to control. Screeds are written 'about' technique in the classical world but there seems little 'real' in it. It's a lot of talk. Flamenco seems to have hardly any talk anout technique outside the the techniques themselves... it's a continuum between the technique, the sound, the result. ( i.e. this is alzapua, this is picado, this is rasguedo, you can do it this way or that or make up your own way, but this is the thing.) It's not really about whether tension is introduced by first doing this and then that or doing that from the start, it's about a foolproof method that leads to picado. And there is one... bip. But, for me, it required glue (to eliminate a hook nail) and flat filing before the magic could take effect. That's all it took. I could play Bach fugues thirty years ago but I could never play a picado until I got the nails right... then I could truly relax. Segovia's first teacher was a poor flamenco player. His dad moved the flamenco guy into his house for three weeks then, when Segovia had learned all he needed, they chucked the guy out. (This is my memory from reading his autobiography years ago. Indeed, there was a foreword in the book in which Segovia bragged about writing the thing himself. He shouldn't have written it himself. He was an important guitarist but a tiny, horrible man.) I reckon three weeks with a flamenco player is enough to learn everything a classical guitarist would need to do everything Segovia did... technically. And I realize that the accepted wisdom is that flamencos 'took' from classical. I know I'm harping on about this but the reason is because it's so huge. With the right nail shape and a simple exercise that requires no analysis, it's possible to develop a technique for playing single line music on nylon strung guitar capable of anything in any repertoire... a 'real' technique, available to anyone, not just the 'prodigies' who happen upon it or are 'born with it'. I reckon Segovia's 'revulsion' to the noisy flamencos was nothing but a cover up, a deflection, a red herring. I have witnessed many similar 'denials of reality' from classical guitarists in their reactions to flamenco dexterity and command of the instrument. Apologies for my off-topic ramblings. I always think I might be connecting to someone in the same boat. Someone who most people would describe as an accomplished player but who once thought what flamenco players did seemed 'impossible', and now sees it's just a matter of practise. But the nails must be right. (Or one can do it 'nail-less' but it is so much harder to do... much, much harder.)
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Date Sep. 27 2012 14:48:56
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco (in reply to chester)
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Chester, to illuminate: The term 'rest stroke' was used. I wanted to differentiate. I wanted to make a point about the actual existence of picado as opposed to all the stuff about muscles and movement. I was saying that Segovia was taught by a flamenco guitarist, in the first instance. I thought maybe people who were not aware of that fact might find it interesting. Classical guitarists cannot play picado. Why? A rest stroke and a picado stroke are the same thing. Classical guitar 'technique' is steeped in ideas related, ultimately, to Segovia. Why can't classical guitarists play picado? It doesn't make any sense. Sorry if it seems unrelated to you. But all the stuff about muscles and minimum movement and the like is identical to classical technique and does not lead to 'a' picado. (Note I'm not taking about a 'better' picado... just 'a' picado) But you say you have a pretty decent picado. My posts are for people who want 'a' picado. (I would emphasize here that 'a' picado means just that... it is not about speed. I've heard a lot of talented people here. I've heard people play fast picado-like passages on other threads but that is not the thing I mean when I use the term.) I don't think picado is a 'hard' technique, as you claim. What does 'hard' mean? So why was it denied to me for years? And why is it denied to so many? (not you, but me and many others) Things are being said in an offhand manner. You say it's a 'complex technique' for example, after the bip bip 'road' has claimed (I would say 'established') that it is not. You say 'practise makes us better' but of course, you know that is not the case. Practise actualizes what we practise in our playing. 'Practise makes permanent' as they say. What I find, from this conversation, is this: Ricardo says things that have enormous value (as do others) but there are also comments being made that sound like the same stuff I've heard for years and none of it leads to the answer. It obfuscates important information. Talking about my comments 'sideways'... 'what he's on about' is very rude. If you do not understand what I'm 'on about' talk to me, as you would if we were in the same room, and I'll try to explain 'what I'm on about'. Or pm me if you're too embarrassed at talking down so far. I get that you post to make pals. I post for different reasons, but no need for the cheek. All the talk about muscles and strength is basically s h i t. And I know this because I've said the same things many times myself. Also, I would say, and I think it's important, that the metronome is not required for this at all. Not to 'get' 'a' picado. It's taken me years to isolate this technique and when it happened it happened overnight, in a 'wunner'. I'm not underestimating the role of the metronome but it has nothing to do with getting 'a' picado. If you find my posts boring please just block them, and I'll promise to take into account that you are not a neuroscientist (as you requested) when you talk about: quote:
The 'roadways' (nerves) these messages pass through get wider (thus better at transmitting information) with use, and the muscles that are supposed to react to the messages get conditioned to react faster. That's why practice makes us better. Lucky you mentioned you were not a neuroscientist. The above quote might have thrown me. Please, if I, or anyone else, wants to mention Segovia or classical guitar or our personal experiences in relation to these matters know that it doesn't sound any less dumb than the My Name is Earl Guide to Neuroscience. If you think I'm being a little cheeky please explain to me the difference between a rest stroke and picado (leaving out all the stories about nerves and muscles... just keep it simple, just tell me the difference).
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Date Sep. 27 2012 23:02:20
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco (in reply to z6)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: z6 quote:
One of the reasons so many (young) players can do picado so well might be the simple fact they (rightfully) assume they just can....than the battle is already half won. That's a good point, and I know you're right about Williams but he got even better over the years, it seems. But! Why do you limit this possible effect to young players? I remember walking the streets in Spain many years ago and thinking sheeyit, every one of these guys just playing in the streets is a virtuoso (maybe the wine I drunk accentuated their skills but, at the time, it seemed phenomenal). Young players now have different standards, just as athletes do, but even years ago flamenco players just seemed incredible. It's hard to define but I mean (kind of) on average. Funny enough the only reason i mentioned <young> was that i (wrongfully) thought you used it in your previous post as well. At the same "young" players have indeed different standards, both in classical- and in flamenco guitar. The easy access to good examples/material/teachers has raised average level dramatically over the years. Television/LP/CD recordings already gave a boost in the 60/70/80/90ties and future genetations can now enjoy the "limitless" possibilities of the internet as well. When my father (1 of only a hand full top players in the netherlands in the 50ties) stumbled on his very first Bach suite for the lute, that discovery was the result of severe surging in specialized university libraries on a regular base. In those days it could take months or even years before you found yourself another Bach suite for the lute. Over the years he found/played all of them and now (60 years later) he still plays them...in the 70ties he upgraded to an 11-string alto-guitar and nowadays he favors playing them on a real lute. The technical abilities that made him stand out in the 50/60s are now standard level. His musical taste and (teaching) abilities however are still quite rare. When he visited Spain for the first time in the 80s (to study the art of Flamenco guitar) the first guy he met was "one of the locals" who basically street-played 24/7 during the whole week. Unlike other flamenco-corse guitar participants (who didn't bother to stop and watch this guy at all) my father spent every second available studying this guys incredible skills. At that moment of time my father was the number 1 classical guitar teacher of Rotterdam University of Music and he and Paco Peña were in the process of offering professional flamenco guitar lessons at university level as well. Presuming this guy represented "the average local" my father almost decided to abandon his flamenco aspirations because "this was totally unbeatable". Long time has past since and my father did indeed became a formidable teacher in the art of flamenco guitar. The first generation of students were a struggle to educate but for the later generations of students "discipline and playing correctly" simply became "standard procedure" and the same happened as in the streets of Spain..... when everybody in your surrounding can play it, obviously so can you. Oh, and that first local my father met back then (the one with the monstrous technique who kept on playing for hours and hours without making a single mistake) later turned out to have a certain reputation himself.......his name was Gerardo Nuñez :-)
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Date Sep. 28 2012 17:22:45
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Picado. New to guitar and flamenco (in reply to z6)
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quote:
But all the stuff about muscles and minimum movement and the like is identical to classical technique and does not lead to 'a' picado. well.... you had a big rant about classical guitar/ists in you last post, but I'm not a classical guitarist, I don't play classical guitar, only flamenco guitar, and I don't know anything much about classical guitar or classical guitarists so I can't really comment on that. But what I will say is that when I watch great flamenco guitarists like PDL, Sanlucar, Gerardo, Riqueni etc. etc. one of the things I see is that they all have very great economy of movement, they all seem to only do the absolute minimum movement necessary and nothing more. These guys are my point of reference. It's not necessary to know about the theory to play well - if you have a good picado etc. and no problems then you don't need to know about these ideas! The "bip, bip," staccato exercise that has been discussed here (also something I practise btw) is not an alternative to the idea of minimum movement, if anything it is an exercise in minimum movement, or as Ricardo said; quote:
This trains your fingers to prepare super early for efficiency and get a good sound and control volume and ultimately rhythmic control which truly what speed is about. I hope Ricardo will forgive me if I have misunderstood or misquoted him, but I am equating minimum movement with efficiency. It's not either/or, it's just a basic fact that the minimum movement necessary to achieve the goal is gonna be more efficient than using more movement than is necessary. Just because someone in a different musical genre espouses this also, or just because someone who knows about it plays badly doesn't make it wrong. Again, if you have a playing technique that is good enough to play the music you want to the standard you want, and if you don't have any problems with tendonitis or anything like that, then you probably have no need for looking into the anatomy and physiology or any of these ideas. If it ain't broke don't fix it! But having wrong anatomical ideas can lead someone to develop problems, either of faulty technique affecting the musical results, or of RSI type problems. so I have tried to point out and correct a few errors. That's all.
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Date Sep. 28 2012 18:26:08
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