Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo)
@ Lonnie
Wierd I was just thinking of this topic cos of something that happened tonight ....and at this point is where I must part from Ricardos opinion...
I was in a bar ..no surprise there. .and a group playing , sang a (rock type ) song in Gaelic , witch is unfortunate for me as It is one of the languages i dont speak . so as a foreigner ( in Ireland ) .. I listened . at a certain point . .. the whole bar , (except me .) sang three words , on beats 1 , 2 , 3 4th rest and then again a bit later in the song ....again except me ...
And your question came into my mind , its not only the guitarist that needs to know the words but the audience .... For example at that point the whole band could have not played at all for 3 beats ....so long as they know the effect of the words because of the interaction ....bearing in mind that flamenco ...as a lot of other music is an outlet ...its party time ....so how are you gonna interact ?? huh? Ricardo ..... If it is just music , you could learn and dance a Sevillanas , as a set piece , but you would dance every one the same as the subject ( words) would not effect you , so you are participating but at a lower level .......trust me , on this one , I been dragged up a lot , and it depends on the Sevillanas Letras (words ) if you are going to get thrown around a bit , swapped, or get hold of the girl ... and the guitarrist will play accordingly.
So really , I still think that it would do no harm , ... no harm at all for the guitarrist to know the words and the meaning ,.I can not see how it would not help ...it would assist an interacction between the singer and him ... that the , non-speaking audience , may , or may not pick up on ... As a performer you want more of the May than the May not ...and I belive they will get it , also never ever treat your audience as stupid ... if its there they will hear it .. thats why you have those specific people that night to see you ... and you want the best .. I assume ... This is mainly to Lonnie
To Ricardo ....who said things of "The lyric content is virtually meaningless to accompanying cante" ... I Personally think that is a enormous mistake on his part and a fairly typical one from a non- Spanish speaking culture .. meaning just follow the rules and it will be OK .... well it might , ... but it might not ,.... .. I think you will get a better deal if you do not "play by numbers " ... follow the singer .....some things may be added or subtracted , its a spur of the moment thing that may only happen once ...you dont want to miss it..
Also you have these strange sentences like ...." but spanish and cante are two different things."" that is just complete nonsense (Mildly ) ....really,,, like someone just invented words that do not exist for some unknown reason .... I dont .. and will never , ever buy that one .. sorry ... no not sorry ... There are two cultures joined in Andalucia , and has been since at least the Reyes Catolicos and long time before , so you have the Spanish , ( Castellano Spanish ) and the Moros , ( the Moorish people ) who still exist there and very much so ....two languages as well ..
Including words and phrases that many , (most Castellano spanish do not recoginise , ) this keeps , amongst other things the whole thing ... a bit personalized ...
However I have alreaady went to far into history to make a point .... stop .......
So I return to the bar I was in tonight , later the band played a version of Niel Diamond ..Sweet Caroline ... at the right part if the song , of course the whole bar went ....Whoa , Oh , Oh ..." and why not , a massive ammount of audience participation ... what every performer would want ....even a foreigner would get that ...not the first time around but the next , and the next .....
Dont forget , flamenco is about life , having a good time , a tragedy , people , a whole culture ......Ricardo dont ignore that ....
I play " Me casé con un enano" in a certain way cos I know its funny , and the people know this too , , . but later in the same Sevillanas ,is ,,, No me mandas cartas etc ....., is a bit more tragic ... so how you gonna play it ??? both just striaght ...huh ?? Finally ....' Is this .... "" poetry and music go hand in hand, but are totally separate from each other. """
Maybe, just maybe . somebody wrote the words first ....and they were good ,,, so some one else , or even the same person put wrote a melody and formed a song around them ....""""poetry and music go hand in hand, but are totally separate from each other>>>> is the worst and most unfeeling sentence I have heard this year ....and its already August .......
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Its funny when ethno musicologists focus on numbers of syllables and rhythms to categorize singing, and totally ignore musical phrasing and form. I dont' want to go off topic though. As an example, Jason Mcguire "knows" tons of letras and how exactly to accompany them and their variations, but seems to have zero conversational spanish.
It's funny when people generalize about one group of people (ethnomusicologists) to try and prove that we should not generalize about another group of people (white dudes or Spanish folk). Exactly whose ethnomusicological work are you familiar with that you would be qualified to make such a generalization?
Ethnomusicologists are musicians as well as academics and many are GREAT musicians. Just because they also write scholarly articles for peer review does not make them any less musicians. As a matter of fact, I would argue that the only difference between Jason McGuire and many ethnomusicologists is that ethnomusicologists have acquired an independent vocabulary to talk about their findings.
By the way, the question is very subtle. The question is not whether understanding letra is necessary, it is more like "Can understanding letra help guitarists."
Norman might have something to say about this because he stated in another thread that if you understand the structure of a tercio (which includes poetic/syllabic and musical content) it can help to "guestimate" or intuit where the cante is going.
Not necessary but potentially helpful.
Also, McGuire is a freak, the exception that proves the rule. It will be interesting to see his protege Roberto as he matures.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
To Ricardo ....who said things of "The lyric content is virtually meaningless to accompanying cante" ... I Personally think that is a enormous mistake on his part and a fairly typical one from a non- Spanish speaking culture
yes because clearly out of all of us here he knows the least about accompanying cante ...at the end of the day...the man accompanies brilliantly ...so he must know whats hes talking about
No disrespect to you Kiko but if he says one needs to wear pink underwear while accompanying id take his word for it...why ? cause he can do it ... and do it to at a very high standard...maybe u can too, ive never heard you accompany (or i cant remember)...so it brings me to my next question ....how on earth do you think you are in a position to know if hes wrong ? lol wouldn't one have to be better at something than someone to be able to call him off on it ? Ricardo knows his stuff
again no disrespect man ...ive just never heard you accompany, i am surprised to see you write Ricardo /mistake/ and cante all in the same sentence...i am not saying he cant be wrong about things but out of everyone around here that i know of Him and Norman are the least likely too...
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
It's funny when people generalize about one group of people (ethnomusicologists) to try and prove that we should not generalize about another group of people (white dudes or Spanish folk). Exactly whose ethnomusicological work are you familiar with that you would be qualified to make such a generalization?
It's not a generalization unless it's clear that Ricardo's referring to all, or even most ethnomusicologists. But what he wrote is consistent with, say, 'some ethnomusicologists', and that may be a small minority.
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
No disrespect to you Kiko but if he says one needs to wear pink underwear while accompanying id take his word for it...
Then I think you put too much on him for your self , like the old ' if he said stick your head down the toilet , you would......... I think you have to think for yourself ......
remember the question Does understanding letra help guitarists?
How can it not help? .....how do you think the whole thing came about ??
this is not a question of ' the best player is right ' as you seem to suggest ,.. In playing Flamenco Ricardo wins ,, I am probably one of the worst on the foro,.... So we move on form there ... Being a crap player means I have no opinion ??? about other things ??? WRONG cos you are playing to mainly to an audience that does not understand Spanish you dont have to know anything abouyt the song you are playing ....WRONG As a professional troop that wants to do there best , why not learn something ,.....?
Or the singer sings maybe " pasó dolores de muerte más grandes los paso yo ....etc.... and now you play your little punteo solo, all happy and smilling etc... which has just got to be different from "Me casé con un enano, salerito pa hartarme de reir,
At this rate you may as well go back to saying does the singer have to understand the words or just do it by the syllable sound ........
I mean why not ...who is there to know the difference .....???...............WRONG
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to El Kiko)
quote:
Then I think you put too much on him for your self , like the old ' if he said stick your head down the toilet , you would.........
I think you have to think for yourself ......
yes i agree but ...cmon its like i cant help to but remember everything hes done in the past...like got asked to accompany esperanza fernandez ...wouldnt one have to assume he knows what hes talking about ?
i am not saying because Ricardo is Ricardo how dare you question him that your opinion dosent matter...but its like Grisha or Jg saying something about picado and you saying ...wrong ...when you know full well they can and since their picado is the best around here...well when it comes to it...so is the advice about the topic no ? assume that those that do a particular thing the best...would have the best advice on how to achieve this something for yourself no ?
i dont know just puzzels me...like i cant just disconnect what we happen to know about the man and his accomp skill from the cante accomp thread and his experience etc..wouldn't you think twice about your opinion against his or more then that finding the confidence to tell him hes wrong ?
again man please dont misunderstand me...not trying to say how dare you question ricardo and your opinion dosent matter, everyone's opinion matter (in the political correct world)...but i am curious of where the confidence comes from since you know the same things i know about the mans skill in accomp...i mean i dont know...are you some accompanist expert ?...at the end it kind of is about what you can do that ultimately matters along side your opinion on a subject right ?
everyone can have opinions...do they all count equally ? sure in a general kind of way (id hate to be the one telling anyone their opinion dosent count)...but in reality...theres an order..and it starts from those that excel in that something and it works its way back...surely experience and proven track record counts
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to machopicasso)
@MachoPicasso:
quote:
Its funny when ethno musicologists focus on numbers of syllables and rhythms to categorize singing, and totally ignore musical phrasing and form.
quote:
It's not a generalization unless it's clear that Ricardo's referring to all, or even most ethnomusicologists. But what he wrote is consistent with, say, 'some ethnomusicologists', and that may be a small minority.
Clearly he does not qualify "ethnomusicologist(S)" by using an adjective such as "some," "a few," "a medium percentage" or some other adjective to indicate that he is not talking about all ethnomusicologists. The plural use of the term without any adjective results in a generalization. Nor does he tell us exactly who he is talking about. To my knowledge there are no ethnomusicologists that focus on numbers of syllables and rhythms in any published study.
All musicians learn from isolated cases and move out to broader implications, it's how our brains work. You CANNOT understand phrasing without understanding syllables and rhythm just like you can't write a grammatically advanced sentence without knowing the alphabet but Ricardo tries to distinguish the two as if ethnomusicologists were only concerned about the former and not the latter. Many ethnomusicologists consider their identities as musicians more important than or equally important to their identities as academics.
There is no peer review on the foro. It's a bunch of people worshiping a select few. That was what was so interesting right before Jason McGuire got on the foro. A bunch of people said "Oh he plays too hard," "I don't like his aire," blablabla. Then when they realized Jason is a monster, some of these people changed their tune and started kissing ass. Jason brought a balance to the foro that is lacking since his departure. He's a great teacher as well. However, flamenco is larger than any one person and he only brought one perspective.
At any rate, "understanding the STRUCTURES and CONVENTIONS of letras CAN help a (foreign) guitarists who do not have the advantage of growing up in the culture. Maybe Norman will elaborate on his other post because I can't find it.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
what i enjoy theres always so many experts when we discussing with words here...they always scatter when we get to the cante accomp thread...id love to take a bit of this into that practical side ...on the cante accomp thread...show and speak your expertise there...
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
what i enjoy theres always so many experts
There aren't any experts here in my opinion. My definition of expert is someone who has worked with the greatest singers and dancers from Spain as well as their locale (or in the academic arena, someone who has published extensively under rigorous review).
Basically that would mean Jason (but he is no longer here) or Grisha for his expertise in playing as well. Every one else has varying degrees of experience/knowledge and opinion however advanced or beginning.
Also, there are different domains of knowledge; experiential/practical, discursive, and they don't always coincide. For example, how many times you take a lesson with a great artist that sucked as a teacher...they had experiential knowledge but not discursive knowledge. Or, how many times you study with someone who was a great teacher but not a player (in classical guitar, Bruce Holzman at FSU is such a person, never had a career as a player but produced some top notch players).
What bothers me is that "expert" opinions get canonized here as law.
Anyway, those are my three posts for the week. 9049 posts Flo? All that time and you could be an expert too, (that's why I am not wasting so much time here anymore).
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
All that time and you could be an expert too, (
well...fair enough that's only cause i been here since 2003...
i dont know i enjoy it here, i have learned a tone, wouldn't be half the player i am if i hadent discovered this place
quote:
My definition of expert is someone who has worked with the greatest singers and dancers from Spain as well as their locale
mine is the same i guess someone that knows more than me on the subject has worked with higher profile singers than myself and performed it, has longer experience in it or has particular interest in it and has studied it intensely etc..
in our pool of experience i consider someone like Norman, Ricardo yourself an "expert" if you dont like that word change it...its just a word...just describes everyone i view as knowing more than me on a topic gets all of my attention on the topic
i dont care that manolo sanlucar accompanies better than all, i dont know manolo, i dont have personal access to him...but i do have acces to people who are more experienced on the topic than myself to disregard that simply cause there are better accompanists in the world is insane
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Florian)
Ok Florian , I know were just talking on the internet and we are all cool about everything ....
However , I do not see how the talk got around to Ricardo says this ,, or that or whatever ......
This was really a language thing, if the player understands it, would it help .? was the question , the answer is basically , Yes... .....And i dont really mind if the Pope has an opinion on this ....my bottom line is , no matter what ANYONE says .....It wouldnt do any harm ..would it ?...the guitarrist may discover a new world of things to draw upon ....or maybe not ...... Just because I speak Spanish , then I kinda cant help it, hearing the meaning to songs i mean .... the same as anyone would in thier own language ..... So if someone said , here is a chinese nursery rhymn for me to learn ,..( i dont know any chinese by the way ) I would say fine , i will try to learn it , but what does it mean ? maybe try to write it out or something , even if i was just playing it and not singing ,....it wouldnt do me any harm and may help in some way i never guessed at yet ......
Maybe I'm just wrong , but I dont think so , I did notice in Ricardos first reply he said this .......
quote:
I will say that if you dont' understand the letras, and you find yourself accompanying say a singer doing only ONE style of fandango, while it wont' hinder the guitarists ability to accompany perfectly and emotively well, you can see after say 5 letras all the same musically, well its boring. You as the guitarist will be missing out on the whole point if you are not grasping the meaning of the words. Again it doesn't affect the performance, but it's an obvious reason to start understanding lyrics for full enjoyment of the art.
which is kinda my point as well , although I do see a slight contradiction in it by saying ,,all the same musically, well its boring and also that it dosent effect the performance ..........but clearly it may , for that reason alone ...........
Anyway maybe I get out of this now ...point made ...
if I ever get to Aussie I'll get you a Fosters or XXXX or whatever you got over there .....
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Leñador)
quote:
Anyway maybe I get out of this now ...point made ...
nah man dont feel like you have , discuss as much as you like, till you feel like you made your point..its a discussion, and i enjoy it
i view it a bit like the bodylanguage...it dictates what u are trying to express more than the acctual words which can have double meaning...and most times dont understand even if you understand spanish....i feel the tones, volumes, expression contribute way more to the story and palo than the meaning of the words
yes ofcourse it cant hurt to know the words...but then again maybe it does...going back to my initial point...whats most important what i say or how i say it ? where is the true emotion really in flamenco in the expression or the meaning of the words ?
does it hurt ? no, is it essential ? i dont know...as he says, if it was every spanish speaking person from south america or spain would be a better accompanist
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Leñador)
It's not essential but it does help.
If you're Japanese (or Yank, Aussie, Kiwi, Texan, whatever) and are playing Mayte's 'Vidalita' and know not a word of Spanish but have killer accompaniment skills then you'll do a great job. But if you realize that the line that sounds like 'yak yak gibberish gibberish' actually means 'y me desperte llorando' then it might help you in expressive terms. It might sound the same to the outside listener but the emotional reward to the player will be increased.
A singer told me recently that she didn't know why she sang at all since few people that worked with her even knew what she was singing about, so it wouldn't hurt to at least know the subject matter of what they're singing.
And if an expert tells me that wearing pink underwear will help my playing then you bet I'll try it, but only to make up my own mind as opposed to blindly following their advice.
Posts: 27
Joined: Aug. 19 2012
From: Easthampton, MA USA
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to elroby)
What fun it is to read all this! And instructive, to be let into the minds of a multitude of guitarists. Now just so you know, pink underwear absolutely helps, but it's the polka-dotted knickers that truly makes you flamenco.
Kiko, thanks for the Ken Lee video. It made my week.
I assume that there is at least one Spanish speaker in every single one of my audiences. Fact is, you never know (I've had great fun in Mexico walking around looking like a goddam gringa, listening in on disparaging remarks made well within earshot). So I learn those lyrics, by gum, and get nervous when I mess them up, and I sing to that person wherever he or she might be because here in upstate New York they've got precious few opportunities to hear it. They've given me their time and attention, so knowing the words and allowing those words to express my own vulnerability to my own emotions is the respectful thing to do. And it pays off handsomely in audience participation. Once that one person yells "¡Ále!" or "Olé!" or "Yeah!" because they can't help it, it infects other parts of the audience, gives them permission to get out of their emotional boxes and effin' respond!
I think there are just so many pieces that must inspire a guitarist - the musical sound of the cante, the emotion expressed via the voice, the intensity of the palmas, all the wonderful things the dancers do, the way the audience responds and the way the troupe responds to this response... understanding the lyrics would be just one more aspect, but how important it is for knowing how to play... that seems to be the question.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to elroby)
quote:
but only to make up my own mind as opposed to blindly following their advice.
well of course...noone saying blindly follow anyone's advice...it makes sense to follow him cause hes better at it than me and i have identified that...if i can be honest to myself about that and see that, then i am not all that blind...
make up my own mind yes... if there is enough in my mind to form anything worth making up and then listening to and i am honest to myself about that (like if theres more in my mind about the topic then i can recognize in his) when it comes to the topic at hand
end of the day it comes down to the person and his /her experience and his/her honesty to themselves
do you wanna be prooven right or get better
do you listen to someone cause u need to agree with what they saying or because u can see they are experienced in something
weather we like it or not, is politically correct or not some opinions do matter more than our own...the opinions of those of us who are more experienced in something we trying to seek advice about
for me firstly what hes saying makes sense to me, secondly...even if it didnt, hes better at it than me and more experienced so its a no brainer...i been accompanying dance and cante for about 14 years and i feel like the lights have only JUST started going on slowly even tho i can probably accompany most of whats being thrown at me...if you asked me if i know what i am doing id still say no
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Leñador)
well ok ... i was out but I couldnt resist noticing that out of all this discussion the one big important thing that keeps coming back in to play from different people is that Pink knickers seem to work ....
Who would have thought it ...time to check if they have my size on E-bay ....
ah ha ......I see there is quite a big choice .........
la próxima vez k ves mis videos de youtube todos sabes k llevo de ropa interior .... (si suena mejor) ........
Me alegro que te gustó el vídeo de Ken lee,... Lonnie
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
Clearly he does not qualify "ethnomusicologist(S)" by using an adjective such as "some," "a few," "a medium percentage" or some other adjective to indicate that he is not talking about all ethnomusicologists. The plural use of the term without any adjective results in a generalization. Nor does he tell us exactly who he is talking about. To my knowledge there are no ethnomusicologists that focus on numbers of syllables and rhythms in any published study.
Appologies for being vague....I was refering to the obviously musically challenged investigators that seem to lump things together via poetry and lyrics. 8 syllables are interesting via poetry, but musically it can mean an almost infinate number things.
My point is that the player sometimes has to "detach" from the lyric meaning, or not get lost in it in order to be on point. I made the point about having to do that in my native language. I know this is a sensitive issue for native speakers since they can't "unlearn" their native language. To be more clear, I have also played and accompanied turkish singers. Same deal, I dont' have to understand the lyric to accompany...I have to know the music and purpose. Emotive content of POETRY need not affect my playing. I am in no way shape of form even suggeting: NO DON"T LEARN SPANISH.....not at all. I am simply responding the original very clear question which was "how important is it to understand the lyrics in order to play (accompany cante)"... and I stated my opinion in detail.
Keep in mind my opinion is actually unique on this topic, NOT because of my experience working in flamenco (someone implied I am NOT an expert such as mcGuire and others)....on the contrary, my opinion on this is important because I am NOT a native speaker. THat means I have infact accompanied letras I did not understand, and I also am quite crystal clear on meaning/back story/structure/origins/translation literal and implied on MANY letras. So I have a unique view on the matter like it or not. My opinion holds that my accompaniment of compleatly understood hearfelt letras is NO DIFFERENT than ones I don't understand or have not even ever heard before. Hope that makes it clear.
I knew some of my opinions would be surprising and offensive to some....too bad.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Florian)
In flamenco there are under estimators (I know nothing ) and over estimators (I know everything ). Not a complete list of course, but it seems to me you're an under estimator. It's ok to be humble but give yourself some credit for what you know and have learned. After 14 years (and 9052 posts ) surely you must know SOMETHING. We all respect, admire and learn from those who know more than us, and we share that with others, but you could turn some of that adulation into an appreciation for your own abilities.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Appologies for being vague....I was refering to the obviously musically challenged investigators that seem to lump things together via poetry and lyrics. 8 syllables are interesting via poetry, but musically it can mean an almost infinate number things.
Flamencologists have been more likely to do that in the past but the new school that includes Gerhard Steingress is much more likely to be more rigorous.
quote:
My point is that the player sometimes has to "detach" from the lyric meaning, or not get lost in it in order to be on point. I made the point about having to do that in my native language. I know this is a sensitive issue for native speakers since they can't "unlearn" their native language. To be more clear, I have also played and accompanied turkish singers. Same deal, I dont' have to understand the lyric to accompany...I have to know the music and purpose. Emotive content of POETRY need not affect my playing. I am in no way shape of form even suggeting: NO DON"T LEARN SPANISH.....not at all. I am simply responding the original very clear question which was "how important is it to understand the lyrics in order to play (accompany cante)"... and I stated my opinion in detail.
Norman, come out of the woodwork man. I agree with you Ricardo as far as emotive and lyrical content goes. All one needs is an ear. But ears are inculcated, enculturated and otherwise trained through experience. This is why you have to be careful in some of the Levante songs...the notes don't actually give you the chord that is dictated by convention. So ear doesn't always work either.
As far as syllabic content, that can give you a clue because there are two types of melisma that can clue you in. If you recognize that five syllables have been sung and all of a sudden there is a long melisma on the sixth syllable, you will know not to resolve because that syllable is not changing. Each tercio almost always is a complete idea in itself. Now this is a very intellectual way to think about it and everyone wants to get past that but it CAN be helpful.
quote:
Keep in mind my opinion is actually unique on this topic, NOT because of my experience working in flamenco...on the contrary, my opinion on this is important because I am NOT a native speaker. THat means I have infact accompanied letras I did not understand, and I also am quite crystal clear on meaning/back story/structure/origins/translation literal and implied on MANY letras. So I have a unique view on the matter like it or not.
Everyone's experience and therefore perspective is unique. There seems to be a lot of non-native speakers. I am hispanic and I am a non-native speaker.
quote:
My opinion holds that my accompaniment of compleatly understood hearfelt letras is NO DIFFERENT than ones I don't understand or have not even ever heard before. Hope that makes it clear.
Key word: "my." It would be interesting to ask native guitarists to see what they have to say.
quote:
I knew some of my opinions would be surprising and offensive to some....too bad.
I am neither surprised nor offended except at your generalization f ethnomusicologists. People here don't really understand what we do and that many of us are musicians first who happen to be interested in cultural aspects as well.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to elroby)
quote:
After 14 years (and 9052 posts ) surely you must know SOMETHING.
yes i do ...i know that i dont know ANYTHING 14 years of just trying to survive and not humiliate myself, palo by palo, chord by chord and note by note
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Florian)
quote:
yes i do ...i know that i dont know ANYTHING 14 years of just trying to survive and not humiliate myself, palo by palo, chord by chord and note by note
i wave all responsibility
9053???
Beat ya. I knew I didn't know anything before I even started posting.
On a side note, all great artists maintain that they know very little and that is why they can continue to learn. If the cup is full you can't pour any more tea.
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
There is no peer review on the foro. It's a bunch of people worshiping a select few.
You seem to be quite the authority kevin. You cast you judgment upon this forum, and critisize those here for being too insular and pathetic. Yet you continue to post regually, what exactly do you want to prove? Or do you need to validate yourself somehow, here amongst those which you despise so much? Maybe you wish that this foro worshipped you, and that is why your so bitter. Just sayin...
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Chilli Fingers)
quote:
You seem to be quite the authority kevin. You cast you judgment upon this forum, and critisize those here for being too insular and pathetic. Yet you continue to post regually, what exactly do you want to prove? Or do you need to validate yourself somehow, here amongst those which you despise so much? Maybe you wish that this foro worshipped you, and that is why your so bitter. Just sayin...
I don't despise anyone nor have I said anyone is insular and pathetic. Nor do I care if anyone praises me.
What I do care about is offering one limited opinion because I know that it is as valid as many other opinions here, and don't worry, I visit here much less regularly, two or three posts a week.
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Does understanding letra help gu... (in reply to Kevin)
quote:
Flamencologists have been more likely to do that in the past but the new school that includes Gerhard Steingress is much more likely to be more rigorous.
I accept that. I should have been more specific then...I was considering Flamencologists ARE a specific or sub group of ethnomusicologists. If you feel that flamencologists are NOT ethnomusicologists with focus on flamenco, and should be absolutely separated then I guess your personal opinions on the distinction would be important to hear.
quote:
This is why you have to be careful in some of the Levante songs...the notes don't actually give you the chord that is dictated by convention. So ear doesn't always work either.
Perfect example actually how lyrics aren't gonna help. And even being a musician able to follow tonos, you need to be familiar with structure in the sense of "how it's done"...again being familiar with the melodies and phrasing ...and the guitar's role dealing with that of course....is the only way you are gonna beable to do it well.
quote:
Now this is a very intellectual way to think about it and everyone wants to get past that but it CAN be helpful.
THat was about sylllables...yes very intellectual, to the point of maybe getting in the way IMO for someone learning to maintain compas and their place in the song.
quote:
Key word: "my." It would be interesting to ask native guitarists to see what they have to say.
Well, a native can't UNLEARN their own language to be objective...so I feel what the orginal question was getting at requires some opinion more like McGuire, mine, or yourself (non native speakers), although I would have to ask if you have ever been in the position of accompanying a letra that you either didn't understand the words to or were clueless to meaning/content even understanding the literal words. That gets more at the heart of the original question.
I want to add that if your spanish is SO BAD that you can't tell that a line of verse is repeating (same words), then you will probably get lost at some point in the structure. Truth is that the melodies are often clear enough that even this issue is minor.
Also like to recall the post of norman a while back where he structured all the combos of solea via ABCD formats. I realized and pointed out in the thread that as an accompanist, there could be a small confusion as he was talking about lines of verse, and they almost but not quite correspond to MUSICAL structure. Musically, the B verse for example would be better understood as "A2" so you have A1 and A2 ....so your cambios and resolutions are always BC to be clear as far as the form is structured to the guitarist. More confusion when a singer sings his A and B verses in replacement of the CD verse. Musically the words must not change the musical form which remains Cambio/resolution (BC).
That type of thing gets the heart I feel of the poetry vs melody IMPORTANCE going on in cante, at least interms of the role of the guitarist. But even understanding poetic STRUCTURE as per Normans examples is not the point of the original poster's question which was simply understanding MEANING of the words.
Printable Version
...at the end of the day...the man accompanies brilliantly ...so he must know whats hes talking about 
) and over estimators (I know everything 
). Not a complete list of course, but it seems to me you're an under estimator. It's ok to be humble but give yourself some credit for what you know and have learned. After 14 years (and 9052 posts 
14 years of just trying to survive and not humiliate myself, palo by palo, chord by chord and note by note 
....... 
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread