Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Adam
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
|
 RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kevin James Shanahan
The word Flamenco, to the western world conjures up feelings of intrigue , passion and mystery . What better sales pitch for the marketing crew . I believe that any of the accused "fakemenko players " , if asked directly do you play flamenco will answer no .
This. It's not as if these people are either part of some great conspiracy to destroy people's conceptions of flamenco, or are ignorant of real flamenco (most of them at least understand the basics). But if you're an artist struggling to make a living, and someone gives you the opportunity to sell a lot of CDs if you append the name "flamenco" to your CD or your ads or whatever, are you really going to say "no thanks, I'm happy being poor and maintaining the integrity of flamenco?" Especially when you don't even play flamenco? Come on.
I agree it would be nice if people didn't think Ottmar or GK or Armik (*shudder*) or whoever when they hear the word "flamenco," but I can't begrudge those artists for doing what they can to market their music (actually, I've heard enough horror stories about Armik to begrudge him plenty other things, but that's neither here nor there). I've spoken with Ottmar about this myself (having gone through a pretty long period of Ottmar fandom before discovering flamenco) and that's the basic story; he doesn't call himself flamenco, he's even been known to explicitly say (e.g. on his blog, back in the day) "hey, my music isn't flamenco," but his marketers use the word for some pretty obvious reasons and I'm not going to realistically expect the guy to stop them for the sake of idealistically saving flamenco's image.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 14 2012 3:33:45
 |
|
paleto3
Posts: 148
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: San Diego, CA
|
|
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
|
|
|
I think the fact that there is so much response to this discussion is really a good thing.
I have fought with this whole issue the entire time I have been studying flamenco.
I thought I would share my thoughts and experience. Please know that what you read is not meant to offend, but if it does, realize that no offense is meant.
Like many, I heard flamenco-like music as well as flamenco from the beginning.
Once I really listened to Paco de Lucía and Paco Peña (because that's all that was available in Tower Records back in the late 1980's), I recognized that there was something fundamentally different about the Pacos from the imitators.
Not long after hearing the Pacos, I heard Ottmar Liebert and Strunz and Farah, Armik, Govi, Jesse Cook and all the others who are similar. Calling their "invention" flamenco was mostly a case of American ignorance. Admittedly, I liked them at first, but came to be bored of all of them because the songs are so simple that once you heard them 4 times, you knew everything there was to hear in it. Whereas with a great flamenco guitarist, their recordings can be listed to a thousand times and nearly each time you can discover something new and beautiful in it you didn't hear before. I haven't found that with the fakemenko players at all.
I believe I both read and heard that Ottmar went to France and that's where he became enamored of rumba, did he stay a while in the Camargue, where I believe the Gipsy Kings are from? If this is true, maybe he never really intended to do flamenco. I would bet that like many guitarists, he saw how challenging it is to play all the song forms well and decided what he already knew was working for him, so why make it harder on himself?
Calling his CD Nouveau Flamenco, I believe, was the idea of the Higher Octave label higher ups, although I can't say I know that for a fact. The problem is that they were using French to describe a treasured Spanish cultural art. I think it led a lot of people to call it flamenco who didn't know any better.
Personally, I have come to dislike the entire genre because it lacks the dynamic, rich, diverse song forms that comprise what we think of as true flamenco.
Nuevo flamenco, as I understand it, and believe me, I don't pretend to know it all, means something different in the US than it does in Spain.
Ricardo, please correct me if I am wrong, but in Spain, I thought Nuevo Flamenco mostly refers to younger flamencos who play pop-infused flamenco, sometimes similar to flamenquito. Whereas here in the US, it often refers to Ottmar and the like.
I agree with everything Ricardo has said, if you don't know the structure of the form, and you don't obey the compás, then you are not doing flamenco.
Everyone who comes to flamenco is going to draw the lines in different places, some along very, very orthodox, traditional lines, others will be less precise. But I think most would agree to following the song form and obeying the compás.
I, for one, cannot play Gipsy Kings, Ottmar Liebert, Armik, Govi, Strunz & Farah or others because, IMO, they have stripped away far, far too many things that make flamenco so wonderful, and because there are imitators on every block of every restaurant row from here to Timbuktu. Personally, it turns me off. But that's just me and my own hang-ups.
Because there is such a demand for Fakemenko, I have weighted our repertoire in favor of rumbas, which I enjoy as much as other song forms, but I insist on representing a much wider view of flamenco by also playing guajira, soleá por bulería, bulería, tangos, alegrías, farruca and more.
In my own view, Fakemenko dumbs it down and I just can't do that. What I play has to have something with what I see as a deeper, stronger artistic musicality.
That said, playing rumbas for people to dance to who don't know how to dance flamenco is perfectly fine, but it ceases to have the depth that flamenco offers when well performed.
For those newer to flamenco, rumba is often ridiculed by people who only enjoy cante jondo because it is not often interpreted with the depth and intensity of a seguiriya or soleá. Rumba originated in Cuba, so in a strict sense it is not flamenco like soleá, alegría or serrana, or seguiriya. But it can be very flamenco if the artist gives it that kind of interpretation.
Most flamenco artists play rumba because it is fun and very adaptable and for us musicians it gives us a lot of artistic license to try new ideas. I will continue to play rumbas, and enjoy them, but I won't market myself as a flamenco guitarist without playing all the other song forms too.
Well, that's my 2¢.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 14 2012 4:46:06
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to paleto3)
|
|
|
quote:
but in Spain, I thought Nuevo Flamenco mostly refers to younger flamencos who play pop-infused flamenco, sometimes similar to flamenquito.
Very thoughtful post, Paleto 3. Your definition of Nuevo Flamenco (as defined in Spain), cited above, has always been my understanding of the genre: pop or jazz infused flamenco, perhaps with non-traditional accompanying instruments, but still flamenco, no matter how far the boundaries are pushed. Apparently there are many, however, who attach the label to Ottmar Liebert and others, who I have always thought of as fakemencos, passing off as flamenco that which clearly is not flamenco.
There appear to be two schools: A. Those who make a distinction between Nuevo Flamenco and fakemenco, and B. Those who claim the two are one and the same. It seems to me that if you accept the second definition, the term Nuevo Flamenco becomes meaningless, a contradiction in terms, and an oxymoron better relegated to the trash can. Better to just call it fakemenco and leave it at that.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 14 2012 5:25:58
|
|
XXX
Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
|
|
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Adam)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Adam
I've spoken with Ottmar about this myself (having gone through a pretty long period of Ottmar fandom before discovering flamenco) and that's the basic story; he doesn't call himself flamenco, he's even been known to explicitly say (e.g. on his blog, back in the day) "hey, my music isn't flamenco," but his marketers use the word for some pretty obvious reasons and I'm not going to realistically expect the guy to stop them for the sake of idealistically saving flamenco's image.
LOOOL
I remember you mentioning this in the past, and i remember too, at the exact same time coincidentally he had released a track labeled as "flamenco" something. I remember also a text on his, f'ing own btw, homepage, celebrating his new flamenco tracks or something. Your observation seems more like conspiracy, as if artists couldnt decide to be honest with their stuff, as if they have no will and need to do whatever they are been told. If they cant make money without fooling their customers they can f' off in my book (just like any other company with such "business model") and should switch the genre or job maybe.
quote:
But if you're an artist struggling to make a living, and someone gives you the opportunity to sell a lot of CDs if you append the name "flamenco" to your CD or your ads or whatever, are you really going to say "no thanks, I'm happy being poor and maintaining the integrity of flamenco?" Especially when you don't even play flamenco? Come on.
Again LOOOL.
If you release a CD with the word flamenco on it.
And you cant play flamenco.
Means you are just an IDIOT. WTF lol. Thats a no-brainer, i dont know what else to say? 
q.e.d man
_____________________________
Фламенко
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 14 2012 15:45:31
|
|
shaun
Posts: 176
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Edmonton, Canada
|
|
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
|
|
|
The thing that's frustrating about reading through this thread is not everybody is talking about the same thing when they say "nuevo flamenco". In most things that I've read, nuevo/nouveau/new flamenco has referred to the quasi-Spanish-like guitar recordings like Ottmar Liebert's "Nouveau Flamenco" album. Flamencos get upset about this because it doesn't sound like flamenco, it isn't derived from flamenco, nor does it have anything else to do with flamenco. It is named such only to sell albums. Which is going to sell more: something labeled "easy listening latin guitar" or "new flamenco"? Playing that kind of music doesn't sell more, just the labeling does. If you want to sell more albums, write your songs in English with a catchy chorus that means virtually nothing.
I have never heard of guys like Paco de Lucía, Tomatito, etc. being referred to as "nuevo flamenco". I have heard of them being referred to as "modern flamenco". Their sound is more an evolution of flamenco and is welcomed by most. Distinguishing between these guys and traditional flamenco is like distinguishing between modern rock and classic rock. They're both rock or both flamenco, it's just one has evolved for the modern times.
However, to call what is commonly referred to as "nuevo/nouveau/new flamenco" flamenco is inaccurate and just a marketing ploy to exploit the wonder and beauty of what we here know as flamenco.
Out.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Aug. 16 2012 14:54:13
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.109375 secs.
|
Printable Version
