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RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Doit, so you are basically saying flamencos are wannabe investment bankers walking around with dollar signs in their eyes whole day, without making a penny Then they must be all stupid to chose flamenco as their income source and be jelous through out the whole gig they do each day... cause for sure most know that they can't have the success of paco or vicente,,, no wait, they are stupid, and delusional at the same time,,,they all believe they can be the next paco and have a villa in mexico. thats why they play complex stuff instead of repeating 2 chords and show us their naked feet.
You are laughing but basically thats right. There are not many rich flamencos. Flamenco is an unprofitable art. I don´t know what you mean with becoming the next Paco.. I don´t share your opinion bout that point. And I wouldnt call em stupid and delusional.. Most of em grow into flamenco. So there is often not a choice. And many pople at bettr places become obsessed about flamenco that makes em wanna earn money with flamenco..but it´s not that easy.
So in short, yes, it´s all about money but just for a few people it works out to prosperity. And they are not stupid, just wrong time wrong place...
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
Could you provide us some Names (3 or 4 artists) that you consider representative of nouveau flamenco? I think you confuse yourself with the "Flamenco Joven" label.
I have always thought of "nuevo flamenco" as that played by some of the younger players, and some who have been around for awhile, who add non-traditional instruments and perhaps a bit of fusion jazz to the mix. But it still has the basic characteristics (compas, palos, etc.) that define flamenco. It is not my cup of tea, but I still recognize it as flamenco.
I have never thought of musicians like Ottmar Liebert as playing "nuevo flamenco" because I never thought they were playing flamenco in the first place. How can a term such as "nuevo flamenco" be applied to music that clearly is not flamenco in the first place? Or is it, as I suggested in a previous post on this thread, that the term "nuevo flamenco" is a contradiction in terms, an oxymoron that has no meaning at all and should be discarded?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
I saw Capullo in Jerez and he was utterly brilliant.
I don't think Capullo would sing rumbas if he consider them as unflamenco i.e fakemenco
quote:
I have never thought of musicians like Ottmar Liebert as playing "nuevo flamenco" because I never thought they were playing flamenco in the first place.
The names Bill, give us some name! Don't go into digressions.
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_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Escribano)
quote:
I saw the GKs at the Wolf Trap. They were utterly brilliant.
I could not agree more. I love their music. But Bamboleo as "fiery flamenco"?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
A controversial theme.
Odd, I think that if I was a flamenco god (not as in player but as rule maker) if there is one palos I would keep, it's the one that makes women move the most! Too much fun and not painful enough?
I understand this of course, a bit like the Sevillanas I imagine. It's funny how humans have to draw lines everywhere, between music styles and even within them.
Posts: 149
Joined: Jul. 14 2011
From: Newark, DE, USA
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: qzack
Can you guys mention the differences beetween flamenco and nuevo flamenco?
Oh yeah another question My friend ask me whether Paul Gilbert's Flamingo is Flamenco or not I can tell that its not "the actual flamenco" since it doesn't have any compas but I don't think I have any other details to make them sure What's your opinion guys? Thanks :)
Simply put, it has to fall with in the frame of the proper song form to be called flamenco music. To equate what you will understand, think of the blues. It is a clearly defined song form, though it can be faster or slower, different types of swing, etc, but very distinct from say "BLUESY ROCK" or bluesy jazz. you can have the same chords and same scale, but if it is not literally the same 12 bar structure it simply is NOT THE BLUES. No respectable rock or jazz guitarist would confuse what they do with a proper blues guitarist, and often make the distinction. But for sure some dumb kids do a bend on the pentatonic scale and say "look at me, I am playing the blues now!!!!!".
In flamenco music we have more than one type of form, but similar idea, and if you break the rules of the structure, it is not flamenco any more. We don't have a term like "Flamenco-y" like when we call some rock "bluesy", but you can get the idea from the word "spanishy" which may use similar chords and scales, but not the proper form as flamenco.
Hope that clears it without getting into specifics.
About big dogs and jealousy....don't forget Paco de Lucia had to call out on Ottmar back in the 90's when he got constantly pestered about the "new flamenco guy Ottmar Leibert"....so the "fakemenco" label was an inevitablity after the genre took off and perpetuated the confusion.
What, you don't like 16 bar blues?
Not sure what my point was going to be, but one thing I have a sense of is that there are examples of music that are clearly flamenco influenced and yet not true flamenco that amount to being really good music, alongside things that probably would be advertised as being true flamenco that are (to me) purely complete drek. But that is so much tied up in the skills of the musicians and what they are able (or not) to convey, and of course, for the imposters, their ability to appeal to a general audience.
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
Here is how I make the cuts:
Michael Pollen wrote about food in one of his books, he said fresh food is food, packaged food with extenders and preservatives are "food like substances".
Flamenco is cante' that has a connection to the past and is an ongoing art that is built on cante' forms. All other forms of flamenco derived music, as fine as they may be, are "flamenco like substances" You can still eat them and many taste good, but fresh flamenco has cante' with no preservatives. No cante' = no flamenco.
All this is good, but when you consider that Pollen wrote this in the 2000's and M.F.K. Fisher wrote the same thing in the New Yorker in the 1960's you find that there is a forty year gap of being behind the curve. The real food/real flamenco discourse has to keep repeating because everyone reads about it and forgets it 20 minutes later.
Julia Child also liked Mc Donald's french fries once in a while, but she could tell the difference between a strawberry shake and fine caviar.
I have no idea why anyone else would understand why I think about it this way, except to say that flamenco cante' is like a stinky blue cheese; a difficult acquired taste.
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
you can have the same chords and same scale, but if it is not literally the same 12 bar structure it simply is NOT THE BLUES
I've heard there are blues forms that can be extended to 16 bars or more that same way you can add extra 4's or 6' in tangos and bulerias and it still stays bulerias or tangos.
There's a famous quip from Lightnin' Hopkins when a young Billy Gibbons was playing with him. Evidently Hopkins extended a line freely and messed up Gibbons' place in the music. After the song Gibbons asked him why he went ' out of compas' and changed the chord too late. Hopkins just said "Lightnin' changes when Lightnin' wants to change."
Now whether or not that means Lightnin' was messing with Billy to show him up or whether changing late is a fair blues move I don't know. But if Lightnin ' Hopkins did it I tend to think it was not a 'blues compas foul'.
It also means to me that blues could have a kind of elasticity to the beat if a great player wanted to put it in there. Especially in the beginning of a blues song when there is a kind of call in vocalization as in flamenco. The African culture historian Robert Farris Thompson made the observation that that call in of the spirit exists in the Yoruba and other tribes ceremonies in Africa and is a central part of the blues. It's interesting that this calling in the spirit opening exists in flamenco, blues and African ceremonial structure.
Siguiriyas and the blues start with that same intention....and so does a Yoruba divination ceremony. Crazy **** man.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
quote:
Doit, so you are basically saying flamencos are wannabe investment bankers walking around with dollar signs in their eyes whole day, without making a penny Then they must be all stupid to chose flamenco as their income source and be jelous through out the whole gig they do each day... cause for sure most know that they can't have the success of paco or vicente,,, no wait, they are stupid, and delusional at the same time,,,they all believe they can be the next paco and have a villa in mexico. thats why they play complex stuff instead of repeating 2 chords and show us their naked feet.
You are laughing but basically thats right. There are not many rich flamencos. Flamenco is an unprofitable art. I don´t know what you mean with becoming the next Paco.. I don´t share your opinion bout that point. And I wouldnt call em stupid and delusional.. Most of em grow into flamenco. So there is often not a choice. And many pople at bettr places become obsessed about flamenco that makes em wanna earn money with flamenco..but it´s not that easy.
So in short, yes, it´s all about money but just for a few people it works out to prosperity. And they are not stupid, just wrong time wrong place...
man!!! most of what you said now in your second post IS what i said with the sarcarstic post: flamenco is an unprofitable art. exactly. and those people are not stupid and delusional. exactly. conclusion: money is necessary to make a living but its NOT the main driving force of those majority of the flamencos we are talking about, otherwise (since we agreed that they are not stupid), they would do the same as Ottmar Liebert does and make a lot more money.
Do you think this guy can't do the same crap as Ottmar and attract even more girls and more audience in general than Otti and make much more money than he does here? Do you really think he is now jelous?
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
Do you think this guy can't do the same crap as Ottmar and attract even more girls and more audience in general than Otti and make much more money than he does here? Do you really think he is now jelous?
Maybe he does ez pz music but you don´t know. Or maybe he doesn´t know anything about business and how good that cheap music would work to make a lot of money. Or he simply doesnt want to for whatever reason. Do you know all what he is doing to make his living? No, you don´t. So that example is not valid. That single video doesnt give enough information about the income of tuto to use it as argument. Btw he seems to be in business with some big guys anyway. So he isnt valid as example.
And btw most of the guys who do nuevo fake something stuff aren´t from spain where is probably the only area on earth where is its possible to do a lot of flamenco coz there you find the people and the audience for it.
In other parts of the world almost nobody cares about flamenco and you will have a hard time to get people together who know how to do flamenco and who can do flamenco. Since that is mostly not the case and it is easier to do ez pz rumbas, the people do ez pz rumbas to make money. That simple.
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
Hi qzack,
quote:
(estebanana)It also means to me that blues could have a kind of elasticity to the beat if a great player wanted to put it in there.
For sure. Charlie Patton didn't keep a steady four beats (let alone a constant pattern of 48 beats, which is what the term "12-bar blues" implies) and Son House criticized him for it in an interview, remembering him as more of a clownish showman than a musician.
quote:
(ricardo)...it has to fall with in the frame of the proper song form to be called flamenco music.
That's it. While there are many parallels between blues and flamenco, one of the most obvious differences is that flamenco "lyrics" (letras, coplas) have a fixed number of lines of verse and syllables and a rhyme scheme because flamenco is lyric poetry (poetry that is meant to be sung). Even the rhythmless styles like malagueña, taranta, granaína and fandango are sung with letras that have a characteristic meter. This is the first big difference between real flamenco and everything else, whether we're comparing it to blues, to jazz or to this so-called "new flamenco." Even some of the exceptions to the rule (long first line in siguiriyas, short first line in soleá, the irregular meter in caracoles and mirabrás) have become flamenco standards. The second big difference is that new ideas become a part of real flamenco when, after several years' time, they're copied by pros and aficionados. For example, some cantes of Camarón and I think also Isidro Sanlúcar are now part of the repertoire but there's still a big question mark hanging over Morente's "siguiriya" with Cañizares in the Saura film.
There's more to paella than cooking meat, vegetables and rice in the same pan.
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to qzack)
Another term in the mix is flamenquito? A visiting singer used this to describe the kind of album she didn't want to record... figure it means light? Little? Not sure I have this right.....anyone?
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From: Back in Boston
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)
back in the day--the way back day--a bunch of funny speaking white boys heard music of the black folk in the south and began their interpretation of that music. rock and roll was then born and thoses funny speaking white boys, english kids, took a music form and made it into something new and unique and i bet a lot of purists poo-pooed those frilly white boys from across the pond for doing so.
the point of the above example is music can splinter off into a new evolutionary line in ways that some may like and some may not. not every evolutionary line works out hence we get a justin bieber. some evolutionary lines do work, hence we get a manolo sanlucar who is a good example as some of his "neuvo" flamenco from the 70's is pretty cheezy but few would argue about his later work--especially tauro!
as to who are the "real" flamencos--i think they are people like us who work 9-5 and come home to a guitar and play a music form that has great meaning and to which we are willing to sacrifice time and energy to perfect for our inner being.
Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Doitsujin)
I don't play Flamenco , I use all the techniques to compose my own original pieces . I am constantly refered to as a flamenco guitarist . The word Flamenco, to the western world conjures up feelings of intrigue , passion and mystery . What better sales pitch for the marketing crew . I believe that any of the accused "fakemenko players " , if asked directly do you play flamenco will answer no . I found Flamenco through the friday night in san fran cd . Not flamenco but I found my way there . Just for the record I do aspire to play and understand flamenco , big trip .
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
I've heard there are blues forms that can be extended to 16 bars or more that same way you can add extra 4's or 6' in tangos and bulerias and it still stays bulerias or tangos.
Cool. The hair splitting examples of exceptions by the masters of whatever style, are not really important in this general discussion. If we try hard enough, we can legitimize the music of ottmar and other fakemenkos, even paul gilbert, to show it falling in line with proper flamenco somehow. Point I made is general distinction to be made.
"nuevo" as a term seems to be a problem, improper uses not clearly meaning the DELIBERATELY miss spelled Ottmar album that inspired a cheesy genre, or the literal translation implying new or modern music young flamencos have been making lately. Then you have pop flamenco light flamenco, etc....then you have the more sophisticated ottmar off shoots like strunz and farah that try to call it "latin guitar" as if it's latino american, most of the spanishy guitar genre off shoots, including ottmar, strunz, armik, etc etc, even gypsy Kings as per guitar instrumentals, are the bastard children of the fusion of Paco de luica with Al dimeola and john mclaughlin....that being flamenco rumba based forms with fancier chords than the tradition spawned played in "chart form" as to allow improvised soloing along side rhythmic backing.
RE: flamenco vs nuevo flamenco (in reply to Arash)
quote:
Do you think this guy can't do the same crap as Ottmar and attract even more girls and more audience in general than Otti and make much more money than he does here?
No he can't because I bet he can't stand playing 4 bars of this stuff because it probably bores him to death. ;)
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