repaired crack in new guitar

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johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

repaired crack in new guitar

Hi again,

Apologies for the sudden surge in posts, its just that I have got a new guitar and am excited but now getting a bit disappointed.

I did a light test on my guitar and found a this patch. From above I can now see a very feint line which I guess is the repaired crack. It would almost go unnoticed without the light test.

Hope you don't mind me asking.

What sort of effect would this have on the sound ? How bad is it ?

How unusual is this ?

I don't think I would do it if I were a luthier.

I guess I may have to send it back to the luthier in Spain, but I can see this becoming quite complicated.

Thanks for your wisdom. Beginning to wish I new about this foro earlier and had gone with one of you.

Cheers

Simon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 11:53:33

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

If it was repaired well you should be fine. However, I don't like the idea of getting a new guitar with a repaired crack. I think the luthier should have disclosed this to you and given you the option to take it or have another one made.

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Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 12:25:29

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

i assume the patch in question is the large rectangular shape. if so i would be very ticked off if i bought this guitar as a commissioned job as the luthier should have been upfront and offered a discount or money returned. if the guitar was an off the rack guitar sold by a store (flamenco world maybe?) they should have known and advertised and discounted accordingly. either way, i would send an e-mail asking for either a discount or a full refund. a very fradulent sale i must say.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 12:37:34

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

If this is the same NEW guitar that needs fret work, then sounds like they unloaded a lemon on you. THat sucks man, I would contact them right away before they try to claim that this all happened cuz of you. Now we have to ask, who built this guitar? And finally keep us updated to what they say about this stuff after you talk to them.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 13:28:43

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Hmm ... Can you see the crack? Does it affect the guitar's playing?

The point being does it just bother you because you discovered it? Or does it
really affect the guitar? Lot's of guitars have "hidden", or "not so hidden"
defects. Especially, sorry to say, those from Spain.

I have a Pedro De Miguel that has two thin cracks in the fretboard, I discussed
it with Richard Brune and his opinion was that they were not hurting anything.
It annoyed me a lot for a while, and I felt like I should get my money back but
then I basically forgot they were there and the guitar is one of my favorites.
It still is, and a few years later I look at the cracks and realize ... It's like a
car, when it's new we hate fingerprints, later after a few years we accept
dents ...

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 13:53:55

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Thanks everyone,

If only it was the price of a lemon. Its a lovely guitar in many ways. My old cuenca sounds like its full of cotton wool in comparison but I suppose that is no surprise.

If you don't mind I will hold of mentioning names until I have had a conversation with the luthier. But I totally understand its important for people here to know. If you are about to buy a guitar through a Spanish luthier and are really worried PM me and I will let you know.

This was the solution to the string buzz before I discovered a fret issue.

Coge una cuerda n 5 y pásala por la ranura del hueso de la cabeza haciendo bien la cama de la cuerda Y prueba se la abra quitado seguro un saludo

Which I read as raise the saddle a little. Which I don't really want to do.

So I better go and brush up my spanish for some discussion.

Thanks

Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 13:59:05

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

Apologies for the sudden surge in posts, its just that I have got a new guitar and am excited but now getting a bit disappointed.

not at all buddy we welcome em, its nice to have some action around..

if this is the same guitar from the exercise video i think it has a nice tone i really like it...it sounds good even through the cam mic..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 14:04:06

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Tough call. On one side the guitar has two faults already.

The fret is a pretty non issue, although it's a bit much to receive a new guitar with sloppy fret work, it's something that is relatively easy to fix.

The crack fix however would be a big issue for me and many others! This will majorly effect the resale value of the guitar a repair like this always will effect it. It won't however effect the sound of the guitar.

Personally I would try and get a little discount for the reson you won't be able to sell it on for as much. If they offer no such discount then I would either send it back and ask for one without the problems or ask for a full refund.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 15:09:52

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

del hueso de la cabeza

This refers not to the (bridge) bone saddle but the nut at the cabeza (head ) of the guitar ..... the other end ....

And it doesnt say anything about raising anything ,....out of context , but ,,it sounds like talking about string slip .......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 17:02:53

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Ah thanks kiko.

Does this make sense to you then ?

lo que te digo es que cojas una cuerda tiene que ser una 5 y pasarla hacia lante y hacia tras en el hueso haciendo efecto lima para que asiente bien en el hueco de la cuerda

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 17:29:44

Morante

Posts: 2180
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

lo que te digo es que cojas una cuerda tiene que ser una 5 y pasarla hacia lante y hacia tras en el hueso haciendo efecto lima para que asiente bien en el hueco de la cuerda

It says you should take a 5th string and pass it back and forth through the groove of the nut, using it as a file, to ensure that the string seats well.

This is NOT good advice.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 17:55:57

El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to Morante)

Basically morante is right ..

But its just a bit strange as it sounds like part of a conversation as it starts with .....

"What I am saying to you is get a string , It must be a 5th string , and move it backward and forward over the bone ( nut ) making a file effect so that the it sits well in the groove of the string ( but it should be.., of the nut )"

anyway (apart from a few strange grammatical mistakes in both messages) i think you should listen first to the luthiers here, and that way you can get more than one point of view .

Also just try to stick to your own language as you dont have to speak Spanish, or any other language , to fix fret buzz on a guitar, even if it is a flamenco one .

Also for a better opinion we need to know a few things about the guitar , like is it new or used... a small crack will probably just stay there and not have any effect at all , but again a luthier ( not me ) would tell you about this , and I'm sure he would ask you for a bit more info about the history of the guitar and a couple of general photos , this is not to have a go at anyone but just to have enough info to give a reasonable opinion ......if you know what I mean ....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2012 19:40:25

RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

I would be very disappointed, Just knowing that they sent you something with a known issue it would make me real mad.

how can you trust the guy again to do the right thing?

I strongly believe that none of the guitar makers here would do this, but be nice to hear from them how to approach the maker of your guitar.

Best of luck!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 0:11:12

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to RTC)

You must also consider that if you purchased it from a dealer/vendor, there is always the possibility that they did not even know about this if the crack is hard to identify in which case the luthier failed to notify the dealer of this issue.

I mention this because I deal guitars and I rarely ever look inside for patches. I have too much trust in my makers that they would send me something like this but you never know.

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www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 1:04:08

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

I discovered a crack in one in the sound board of one my guitars that I was making to order. I found it just as the first seal coat of french polish was going! It was sooo minute but I knew it was there. Despite having the whole guitar almost finished I ripped the top off the guitar and put a new one on. I would not have been happy to let it go and neither would my customer have been happy if he had found it. I have since received my second order from him!

I believe this is the right course of action rather than sending out something that is/was faulty and hoping that the customer doesn't discover it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 8:05:04

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Thanks everyone for all your advice. Its really great to have some different views on this.

I think the honesty and integrity of the craftsmanship is important, when you spend a lot of money on an crafted instrument you are buying a piece of that persons work, time and magic. I always wanted that experience to feel positive rather than a little sour.

I guess I need to have it properly checked by a luthier, and see if anything else is up.

So its a €2700 guitar it has this barely visible repaired crack on the soundboard and the frets need a little work. Any ideas how much it should have been discounted.

I don't have intentions to sell it now but resale value has to be a factor as circumstances in life easily change.

Apologies again for keeping the luthiers name disclosed, but as I mentioned if you are going through such a process do PM me and ask if it is so and so. I will be more than happy to reassure you.

Thanks again.

Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 9:09:27

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

one question to pose to luthiers--if the builder of this guitar did the repair is this a typical way of patching a crack--putting a large size piece of wood over the crack? from the posts i have read over the years one would glue the crack or cleat it. the patch in the photo looks very odd.

as for a discount--hard to say but i would start the process at 25% off the purchase price. again, the assumption is the guitar is brand new and the price of the guitar was not already discounted because of the crack.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 9:31:21

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Thanks Keith,

I am not actually sure what is under there, It could be tape, wood or a stick of chewing gum ( its that sort of size, a bit shorter so maybe had a bit bitten off ).

Yeah I would like to know if its good practice. If he hadn't done it I would not have notices the very thin line on top which I can't even photograph.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 9:44:33

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Anders would poop a brick over this. There are Strad, Guadagnini, Da Salo, everyone who was anyone, violins that have patches inlet where the makers found pitch pockets, knots, flaws revealed by carving or thicknessing the wood.

They did repair work as the instrument was being made because instruments are made of wood. The best of the best all through history have done this even Torres the grandaddy of this guitar we all make and play.

Just saying you guys seem to be putting this poor fellow through the ringer for something that is historically business as usual. I would just say to him, hey you did not disclose this is this a problem? And often DEALERS crack or mar guitars and try to put it on the guy who made it.

Here's the deal, if you make a guitar and you're at a stage in your process where you can replace a component fine you as a the maker don't think is up to par, fine. But if the guitar is all made and it gets a crack, what do you want the guy to do? Destroy the guitar?

Just another perspective to think about.

I know other guitar makers wanted to say that, but don't want to get assaulted by the populacho.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 16:37:57

Shawn Brock

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Just saying you guys seem to be putting this poor fellow through the ringer for something that is historically business as usual. I would just say to him, hey you did not disclose this is this a problem? And often DEALERS crack or mar guitars and try to put it on the guy who made it.

Here's the deal, if you make a guitar and you're at a stage in your process where you can replace a component fine you as a the maker don't think is up to par, fine. But if the guitar is all made and it gets a crack, what do you want the guy to do? Destroy the guitar?

Just another perspective to think about.

I know other guitar makers wanted to say that, but don't want to get assaulted by the populacho.

Man that's tough... On one hand you have to trust that the maker wants his instrument to be enjoyed and played as much as possible. You have to believe that he wouldn't want to send a guitar out that wasn't the best he thought he could build. That don't mean that a cracked guitar isn't as good of a sounding guitar just because its cracked but...

Now here's the other hand, and how I see it. If the maker didn't disclose that he was sending a cracked guitar, then he isn't worth his weight in potatoes!

Once I was having a mandolin built from a prominent American builder who now gets $9000 per instrument. We had arranged the date for me to come and pick the instrument up, and 3 days before I was supposed to pick it up he called me and was all up in arms. He said that the finish had cracked in a few spots and that he didn't understand why. As best as he could tell it was a bad batch of lacquer... He offered me 3 options. 1: I could buy this instrument and he would give a discount on the price. 2: He could refinish it and have it for me in a month. 3: He could just start over, push back his list and build me a new mandolin if I had a problem with either of the other 2 options.

I chose option 1... After looking at the few small cracks in the finish I decided they were no big deal at all. He also told me, (without me asking), that if the cracking got worse that he would be glad to refinish it and give me a loner instrument while the work was being done. We both walked away happy and have had a good relationship for over 10 years.

During this 10 years I have seen his prices go from $3000 to $9000, and now he's semiretired and living well. Just a few weeks ago I called him to see if he would recommend a luthier for a refret, as I know he don't do any setup work except for on the few instruments he builds each year. He said, "Shawn you send it on over and I'll refret and set it up for you. You have always been good to me, and you have helped me sell a lot of mandolins over the years. I'll ship you a loner out tomorrow and when you get it just send yours over. After I'm done with the refret I'll send it back and then you can send the loner back when you want to." I thought that he was being overly kind and told him so. All he said was, "boy I won't have it any other way. You helped me make a living, now send the damn thing out when you get the loner!"

So would I buy a cracked guitar? Yeah, maybe I would, but only if I knew about the crack and it was all out in the open. And there's no way that I would pay full price for a new guitar that was cracked.

I'll bet you this, I'm having a blanca built now by a foro luthier, and he would never do business that way. If the top cracked he would tell me about it. I don't even know if he would even be willing to sell me a new guitar that had cracked. He could step in at this point and share with us if he would or not, but I trust with all my heart that he wouldn't just repair a crack and send the guitar without a word... That's not the kind of guy he is...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 18:20:28

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

OMG... just saw that picture... That sucks man. Give it back...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 18:37:34

Shawn Brock

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Just saying you guys seem to be putting this poor fellow through the ringer for something that is historically business as usual.

I forgot to say, that with the luthiers I have worked with throughout my lifetime this is not "just business as usual." Maybe it is for some luthiers, but I have had the pleasure of not having to deal with such shady people and poor craftsmen as that.

Repairing a component that you don't think quite cuts the mustard is one thing, having a bad spot in your finish is one thing, having tool marks here or there is one thing, having a little glue left over in a spot that didn't get cleaned is one thing, having a rough spot or binding which wasn't completely scraped smooth is one thing, but you add all these up and you are approaching poor craftsmanship. Even with all of that its not nearly as bad as trying to cover up a crack and hoping the customer don't notice it, or not caring if the customer notices it. Tool marks and things of that nature are no big deal. If people have a problem with them they can buy a guitar that was made on a CNC machine in a factory. But a crack goes beyond just fixing a bad component, at least in my mind...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 18:39:13

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Here's a link to the thread where a guy had a similar problem with a classical guitar

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=64584&hilit=crack+in+new+guitar

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 19:37:21

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Oh thanks SEden that is really similar, actually now I really am worried because my teacher had thought the G string wasn't ringing true and I had put it down to the strings or saddle.

Estebanana thank you for the other side, I am actually a maker of sculptures and electronics and I know how it is, constant disappointment with the reality of working with materials... but thats normally because I am doing weird stuff, not working within a well defined tradition. I could relate to the argument.... "You asked for me to create something, I created it and made the decisions I made and here it is, like it or not." Fortunately I can normally take that stance on stuff but I don't make fine guitars.

Anyway its a can of worms now as we get to Shawns point about reputation. If there is not a positive outcome out of this and I play my new guitar on video here, talk openly about my experience... good chance is that people here would think twice about buying one of these guitars. I actually would like to give the luthier a chance to explain.

So now I am going to go and try to practice while obsessing over the sound of my g string. I will keep you all updated.

Thanks again for giving up your time to share your wisdom and views. Its really appreciated.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 20:12:03

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

not to whip a dead horse here but there are 2 things of importance. first, the patch looks like crap and i somehow doubt it was done by someone who knew what he was doing--just my non-luthier opinion. the second and most important issue is the seller, be it the luthier who sold it directly or a store, tried to pull a fast one and did not disclose. boo-boos happen and wood does crack and the luthier/seller with integrity would be upfront about it and offer some form of compensation to the seller.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 0:37:37

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to keith)

quote:

boo-boos happen and wood does crack and the luthier/seller with integrity would be upfront about it and offer some form of compensation to the seller.

I agree. $2700 euros is a lot of money man. It sounds like your not happy with the way the guitar plays. Hopefully it just takes a few small adjustments to resolve any issues. If that's not the case, send it back.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 2:10:48

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

, I am actually a maker of sculptures and electronics and I know how it is, constant disappointment with the reality of working with materials... but thats normally because I am doing weird stuff, not working within a well defined tradition. I could relate to the argument.... "You asked for me to create something, I created it and made the decisions I made and here it is, like it or not." Fortunately I can normally take that stance on stuff but I don't make fine guitars.

Hey what do you make? Some my training is in sculpture also.

And thanks for not reacting to my thoughts about repair work while guitars are in progress. You would be amazed at the silly mistakes some of the best people can do.
I think you should work it out with this fellow, and be discreet. Go on the premise that we all want to do our best work.

See if he'll exchange it for another one or something. There are plenty of guitars out there. Don't crucify one fellow over a crack, life's to short for that kind of stuff. That guitar just sounds like it's not your guitar, find another one you have a good gut feeling for.

The worst case scenario here is that you'll have to get fret work done and live with small crack that will not effect the sound, but if you go into it positively you will probably get a new guitar and everyone wins.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 4:20:22

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

Thanks again.

Estebanana here is the main part of what I do at the minute. Probably easier to take a look than me explain. You missed sculpture off your biog on your site, I am intrigued now.

http://www.owlproject.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 23:13:47

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

John, I have to get back to you in a couple days, going out of town, but I looked at your work, very cool.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 2:17:54

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: repaired crack in new guitar (in reply to johnnefastis)

It’s good to have a bit honesty.

I bought two “new” guitars in Spain a long time ago (1960s) that came with built in repairs.

The constructor of the guitar bought in 1968 pointed out the repaired top I was charged 60% of the normal price. That seemed like a good deal and I didn't attempt to bargain. The guitar turned out to be very good and I still have it – no further problems apart from a broken wooden tuning peg after about 10 years.

Earlier in 1961 I experienced a less honest approach. I was spending a month at Barcelona University and desperately trying to find a flamenco guitar (not easy in this city in the 60s) to replace the dead sounding guitar I had been learning on in the UK. I visited lots of shops and found nothing better until nearly the last day of my stay. I was so overwhelmed with the “feel” of the guitar under my fingers that I bought it without looking at it much. When I got home and looked more carefully the problems began to emerge. This was obviously not a new guitar. Three frets had been replaced and the ends had not been shaped properly. There was a dark sweat mark under the French polish on the upper bout where the arm rests suggesting that the guitar had been refinished. The wood for the back was very wide grained and the colour did not match the sides – I suspect that this was a replacement back. . The join between the two halves opened up after a few months. Ok, it was lying and cheating - BUT with the most important problems fixed it was still a fabulous sounding guitar. Unfortunately it was a bit narrow at the nut for me but my son has it now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2012 10:34:20