RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run.

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Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

Florian will probably know the answer better than me but I think thats right.

I haven't even gotten to that...i figure i better do a few, get comfortable...drag it out not hurry through them ...only did some so far...every night i add one or 2...u guys doing them all in order ?

01 Arpegio
02 Pulgar
03 Picado
06 Picado masti
11 Escala Mayor
12 Alzapua
17 Picado Cuerdas

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 14:06:04

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Just got stuck on the Escala Mayor.... which I would have named phrygian.

There seems to be an error in the tab. On the CD the turn around when the scale goes up a semitone I think is like this.
Strangely it took a while for me to get my head round it.

-----0---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1--2--4--2----||
--------3--1--0--------------------------------------------------------------------1--2--4----------------||
-----------------2--0---------------------------------------------------------1--3-------------------------||
-----------------------3--2--0-------------------------------------1--3--4-------------------------------||
--------------------------------3--2--0-------------------1--3--4----------------------------------------||
-------------------------------------------4--2--1--2--4-------------------------------------------------||

and then he writes it correctly....

-------------------------------------------5--3--2--3--5-------------------------------------------------||

Then I think he wrote it wrong again it should just continue the same.

The other odd thing is I slowed down the track and he plays well ahead of the beat.
That surprised me but I am in no position to argue with Pedros timing.

Also anyone else finding those chord shapes in the Arpeggio studies are holding you back ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 3 2012 22:36:29

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to johnnefastis)

oh yeah i picked that up too...i hate how he just goes etc etc etc...here i made a tab for all of it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 8:30:50

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

A dumb joke Doit pulled off. Deleted now it is.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 14:05:54

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Doitsujin)

tsk tsk tsk (condescendingly shaking head at Doits inability to focus and be mature)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 19:24:56

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

thank you Florian for the correction I will be studying that scale tomorrow and yes actually I am learning them in order ... and putting a minus mark on the exercises I'm not able to do up to speed so i practice them more

johnnefastis somehow I found those Arpeggio studies the easiest so far in this book on the other hand the Picado Hindu gave me real hard time

btw again on exercise 8 'Ligado - Pulgar e Indice' there is 'P alt im'
I hope it means that we need to do the whole exercise with P and then again with im and not do a string using P and the next string im

best luck guys

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 19:30:34

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Elie)

this is great guys, i am enjoying the mutual motivation..

id like to submit this to it, for string changing..i think it will make the practice more complete...this is the reason why all those cano roto guys have this amazing flawless picado ...so punchy, staccato and clear even on the base notes

always alternate IMI MIM ...move up and down the string and frets in every possible position...Serra has something similar but i think this makes that practice even more complete ...do this 30 min - 1 hour a day and strings crossings feels so natural and easy it really is one of those miracle exercises ...so simple...so effective

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 19:50:42

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Yeah this group motivating thing is great. I wanted something to take me out of my comfort zone and these are doing that for sure.

I actually find them pretty boring but I guess thats the key... to make them sound so good they don't. Like Gerardo in the Encuentro DVD, I have never heard chromatic exercises sound so good.

Elie it sounds like you are taking a really good methodical approach. I am just going slowly over and over the first 12... Just to start getting the hang of them. I am so far off tempo but I don't think thats important. When I feel really comfortable with them I might start a spread sheet to chart my progress. I have never done that before but I can imagine it could work for this.

Its a shame its not a challenge or something... shall we set some goals. It could be cool to have a the same spread sheet and see some graphs of our progress. Or a piece played before and after the Pedro workout.

I think I will be at this for sometime.. now I am going to play some music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 4 2012 22:06:38

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to johnnefastis)

quote:

this is what he writes in the notes.

quote:

I present this first
installment of "Guitar Techniques" created by Pedro Sierra. It is a series of basic and simple exercises recorded and mixed in the chronological order in which they must be practiced. Following the order of the recording, both hands will be warmed up and developed simultaneously. This CD is also useful because the guitarist often forgets the order of which the exercises should played as well as the speed of the metronome for each exercise.

sure. i had forgotten that. but when i read it originally and went through the exercises i kept asking myself what was the reason they must be practised in that order.

alternating practising different techniques makes sense, but isn't a new idea.

likewise, as Rui Martin has pointed out, many of the exercises are pretty standard.

some of the later exercises (14, 15, 16) are less basic, so makes sense for them to come later

but is there a reason exercise 1 has to come before exercise 4 (both arpegio)? or exercise 11 before 19 (both scales)?

it's always interesting to see what a great player uses in private practise or warm-up, or what they use in teaching

but

until i have some kind of concrete explanation of why this particular set of exercises "MUST" be practised in this sequence i remain sceptical...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 12:36:25

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

likewise, as Rui Martin has pointed out, many of the exercises are pretty standard.

Hey, Iam not Juan

This kind of exercises dont really follow an order, mainly because of their nature. A very difficult alternating finger with string jumps exercise might be too hard for Florian and piece of cake for you and maybe a straight 4 notes per string chromatic thing is giving you a hard time and its easy for Florian.

The point of these exercises isnt musical, its about the mind & body connection, it has to do with the central nervous system if Iam not mistaken.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 12:51:24

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

thank you florian, nice exercise.

I totally understand johnnefastis
the most important is to aim on the clean playing

the methodology I'm following is (I don't know if its right or wrong but its working well with me):
I am learning the exercise and as this project is called 'exercise test run'

I am trying to play it with Pedro, if I couldn't play it clean and up to speed, I slow it down using VLC the -slower(fine) button- and that's equal to a 'Minus' in the sheet, I try again and if I'm still not able to play it up to speed I slow it one more time and add another 'Minus'. so the times I slow down the exercise is equal to the number of minuses I mark it with. example :
Picado Cromatico -, means I can play it after slowing it down once
Picado Hindu - - , means I can play it after slowing it down twice and so on ..
this way I can detect my weakness

quote:

Its a shame its not a challenge or something... shall we set some goals.

maybe we can create another thread that is related to this one and post our attempts and progress there if you like.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 13:05:54

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

quote:

until i have some kind of concrete explanation of why this particular set of exercises "MUST" be practised in this sequence i remain sceptical...

well i am not practicing it in order..i practice things i know need work ...eventually wanna do all but i am not much into tremolo so i doubt i will do that...

it dosent matter i dont think...an exercise is an exercise...until it gets too easy etc..

the chromatic ones ....should be easy and are...but cause i hadent done them before...when checked with my audio wasent doing them straight as and as perfect as i should have been because they sopossed to be "easy" so i find out the problem...fix it, be honest with myself and move on..

there is stuff in there to fix if one is absolutely honest and critical with himself...records and checks velocity, evenes...etc...if not u move on...it is a mind and precision exercise...its not brake through genius never thought about ideas...but it is his suggestion and i am guessing the man knows whats hes talking about..

could everyone do the major runs picado exercise for example from the start ...3 times in the raw, medium speed...absolute perfect velocity, volume, tone, timing and recorded themselves and heard no gaps in the sequence ?

if so move on till you find something that challenges you...not right hand but left hand...if nothing in this book does and can do everything perfect as audios first go or whatever move on..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 18:47:12

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

I think pedro was drunk when he wrote the tab for the exercise # 10 arpegio combinado

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 19:57:10

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Elie)

lol

i cant stand the hand writing books..i think at some point gonna change to proper tab...i dont need to be guessing stuff when exercising...and those skinny tab pages that only fit about 5 notes across

this would my book too....2 notes examples..."yeah and here you do this and then ...u know.... u keep going up the fret...and then come back down...etc. etc"

ex.2 " Do the same as in exercise 1 but use 4th finger instead of 3rd etc. etc.."

ex.3 " Yadda Yadda Yadda etc. etc. give me money"

ex.4 " oh sorry this is not an exercise, its my lunch and coffee stain"

ex.5 " 2 x milk, 1 x sugar, 1 x bread, 2kg potatoes, 1 roll of toilet paper "

ex.6 " Call Juan back about gig 25th May, 040176909"

ex.7 " Note to self, must remember to rewrite book and fix mistakes before making book available for sale"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 5 2012 20:09:46

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

hehehe yea I feel you man, love your brief notes it really should be like that lol

and yea its not just the hand writing pheww that tab has about 8-9 mistakes on the first and second page

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 6 2012 8:20:30

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

in case you guys worked the tremolo exercises you'll notice that there is a missing part, I transcribed the missing part at the end hope it helps

the sequence should be :

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2012 21:24:15

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Thats great thanks Elie,

I am resorting to playing to the CD slowed down now. Its a shame the exercises were not notated properly showing 1/4 notes, triplets etc. But I am looking forward to pretending to be sat next to pedro.

Its gonna take me a while to memorize the Arpegio Combinado piece though. Have you managed that ?

Cheers

Simon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2012 19:42:47

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

I like those exercises a lot - they showed me where my weakest areas are. For example I can play pulgar exercise alongside Pedro comfortably. But for picado exercises I need to slow down to 70% and I play arpeggios at barely 50%.

Being new at flamenco, I have questions:
1. I still don't understand those pulgar/picado exercises that you talked about(nr.5 and nr.8) - how exactly is it supposed to be played? Could you please write exact right hand fingerings for first lines of ex.5 and ex.8?

2. when playing arpeggios do you rest the thumb on the next bass string being played or do you keep the fingers "in the air"?

Thanks a lot!

Btw, I practiced those Vai/Satriani/Eric Johnson exercises for eletric guitar for a couple of years and still find Pedro's exercises very useful, being flamenco-specific.

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2012 19:50:26

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Hey Martin,

Cool that someone else is doing this too.

So is it just me, Martin, Elie and Florian ?

quote:

1. I still don't understand those pulgar/picado exercises that you talked about(nr.5 and nr.8) - how exactly is it supposed to be played? Could you please write exact right hand fingerings for first lines of ex.5 and ex.8?

Basically you do im im im im until you change position then switch to Pulgar etc etc.
Look up both techniques and make sure you are getting them right. I think its a useful exercise as the arm position changes quite dramatically for each technique.

quote:

2. when playing arpeggios do you rest the thumb on the next bass string being played or do you keep the fingers "in the air"?

I am sure there are whole threads on this topic but I would say rest the thumb on the next string. I have seen some players return it to the 6th string too.

quote:

Btw, I practiced those Vai/Satriani/Eric Johnson exercises for eletric guitar for a couple of years and still find Pedro's exercises very useful, being flamenco-specific.

I was an indie kid and never did the metal thing so these are a challenge to me. If you are new to flamenco I would say there are loads other (more) important things to practice, compas, compas, compas, rasgueados etc.

Right I am going to go and check my speed as a percentage too....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2012 20:08:05

kominak

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 20 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Thanks Simon,
I understand there are more important things in flamenco guitar and I have a great teacher for those things, I just like Pedro's exercises as a kind warm-up thing before the actual rasqeuado/alzapua guitar destruction starts :)

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Martin Kominak
Slovakia

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 15 2012 20:17:10

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Its gonna take me a while to memorize the Arpegio Combinado piece though. Have you managed that ?

actually yes I have, i've been working on it for a while
here is a take , it's still not clean but working on it:
http://soundcloud.com/aeli/arpegio-combinado

working on Horquilla now it's also hard to memorize
the 4 exercises I found hard to memorize are 10.arpegio combinado, 13.Tremolo, 14.Horquilla and 16.Arpegio subiendo y bajando

Edit : the 14.Horquilla and the 16.Arpegio subiendo y bajando follow the same progression

I am glad you joined us kominak

quote:

I just like Pedro's exercises as a kind warm-up thing before the actual rasqeuado/alzapua guitar destruction starts :)

I feel you're kinda underestimating those exercises

I mean they are more than just warm-up in my opinion

quote:

Basically you do im im im im until you change position then switch to Pulgar etc etc.

the exercise '#8.Pulgar y picado con ligaos' is played on the first 4 frets, so do you mean by changing position moving from string to another ?
I am playing the whole exercise with P and then pedro pauses for seconds so I switch to im . correct me if im doing it wrong johnnefastis

I think it would be so hard to play the sixth string with p and then the fifth using im and then the fourth using p etc etc

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2012 11:44:11

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Wow Elie you are flying... It will be a while before I catch you up on that. Sounds great to me. While slowing down Pedros CD I discovered that in the early arpeggio studies the he actually takes his left hand right off the fret board between chord changes. This makes them clean but it means he plays open strings which work out well in this progression.

When slowing down the Arpegio Combinado piece the chord changes are actually a little messy.... but at speed it sounds great.

Do you know what the chords/progression is ? It sounds nice and familiar but I have not studied it.

No wonder I found it so hard to get any sort of speed !

I am sure you are right '#8.Pulgar y picado con ligaos'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 16 2012 19:53:51

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Olé johnnefastis

thank you man!

quote:

I discovered that in the early arpeggio studies the he actually takes his left hand right off the fret board between chord changes. This makes them clean but it means he plays open strings which work out well in this progression.
When slowing down the Arpegio Combinado piece the chord changes are actually a little messy.... but at speed it sounds great.

I agree with you 100%, I realized the same thing and I think that it is not correct but maybe as its a right hand exercise so no much argue

quote:

Do you know what the chords/progression is ? It sounds nice and familiar

I agree its familiar but I really don't know what or where the progression comes from
if you want me to write the tab again to avoid the mistakes there just tell

Olé!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 17 2012 11:41:32

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

the Picado de tres~18 exercise is the coolest exercise in my opinion, had much fun practicing it

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 19 2012 21:17:11

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to johnnefastis)

Hi All,

Are these exercises good for beginner/intermediate players or they more for advanced players?

Thanks,

Kalo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 21 2012 2:19:55

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

quote:

Are these exercises good for beginner/intermediate players or they more for advanced players?

hey Kalo ,
I think that they suit both. most of them are played at high speeds that are hard for beginners but they can be slowed down, there are no crazy left hand stretches but there are lots of frets barring.

if you have access to spotify you can listen to these exercises first then if you like them get the book.

Olé!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2012 13:04:30

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

this exercises i would say its for anyone...easy enough...i dont think the speed on the cd should be considered as the speed to do them at....its just an audio indication, and because hes pedro sierra of course hes gonna do them fast...absolutely no point doing it that fast if you cant do them that clean and secure...speed is not the audio is intended for just the sound and clarity

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2012 13:08:22

Kalo

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

Thanks Elie & Florian!

I have Soundforge 8.0 on my computer and I can slow down these exercises to play along with...

Eventually use a metronome once I get the hang of it..

Kalo!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2012 16:07:41

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

i haven't concerned myself with the speed, are you guys actually doing it at speed from the cds ??...was just trying to do them as clean and as even as i could first...at whatever speed comfortable enough for me to do and at the same time analyze myself and think about what i am doing..hasent even occurred to me to try and do it like him..i am always slowed down at around 70%
its not a race for speed just trying to get the benefit of the exercise...i dont see how i could do that if i am trying to race along with Sierra

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2012 16:09:29

johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012

RE: Pedro Sierra exercise test run. (in reply to Florian)

I am taking it real easy I have slowed the lot down to 50% and got as far as Tremolo. When I have them all down at 50 I may start building up the speed week by week.

I think they are good for any level too.

I would maybe just do something like the first 2 - 4 chords for the arpeggio studies as these should be about the right hand.

Do you guys think there is a reason why he has gone for quite challenging left hand shifts for these arpeggio studies ? I guess the idea is that they give your left hand a work out while you do your arps but I know a lot of people swear by just using one or two chords for these sort of exercises.

Also I noticed some errors in score Arpegio Combinado compared. I think I have it the CD version right here. But Elie did you do this too... yours sounded great and I think you mentioned doing the same thing. Does this look right to you ?
(His version in the image)

7-----5-----x-----x
5-----5----10----8
5-----5-----7-----7
5-----3-----8-----5
x-----x-----7-----7
x-----x-----x-----x

The way he plays with the metronome is not so obvious, some exercises start on the off beat, metronome changes tempo between exercises etc. I am considering making a new version which each track starts with guitar and metronome but then just cuts to metronome so you can hear yourself play. I can share it if I get round to it. Or we could just try and notate them properly, with time values ?

At 50 % I can start to feel sleepy around the end of Picado Mastil so best get to it.

Cheers