Need luthier advice on never-used 1969 Ramirez

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a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

Need luthier advice on never-used 19...

Guys,
I just bought a pristine 1969 Ramirez cedar-top peghead blanca 1A. It was owned by a wealthy Nashville instrument collector who hoped to learn flamenco and gave up after a few weeks. He put the guitar away in 1969 and died this year. It hasn't been played until today. I don't know if it was left unstrung during that 42 idle years. No splits, no dings, original finish. 660 string length.

I put new strings on it and it sounded great and for 2 days. I was a happy camper. Then the strings just went THUD. Savarez red card bass and laBella golden trebles.

Questions:
Can a guitar be played in after all that time? Is it too late to save it?
Should I try higher or lower tension strings?

Any recommendations?

Tony

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 13:08:37

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

sounds odd for sure. There is nothing inherently wrong with a guitar that age that hasn't been played. I would have it checked out to make sure something structural hasn't come loose.

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 13:11:00

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to aarongreen)

I just went back to playing it this morning and with the same strings still on it, it seems to be "all better" again.

Just before it went "dead" I had carried it outside to another dehumidified building and during the 50 yard walk between, it was exposed to 100% Florida humidity. That was when it sounded dead. I thought it was the strings or a problem with the guitar. This morning, after a night in 45-50% humidity, it is back to sounding crisp again.

Very strange. Could it be so sensitive that brief exposure to high humidity could have such a big (albeit brief) effect?

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 14:45:24

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

There is nothing inherently wrong with a guitar that age that hasn't been played.

Thanks. Aaron. That's good news. Logically, the woods could have been aged for 40 years before it was assembled -- and luthiers would see that as a GOOD thing. The only thing I can think of is that the glue joints might settle in differently if it wasn't being played. Especially if it wasn't strung during that time. THen the sudden stress of being strung and played after all that time . . . ?

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 15:00:25

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

My father owns a 1962 classical Ramirez. He is ridiculously careful and only plays it on very special occasions. It is basically un played and as good as ever.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 16:26:41

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

During the latter half of the 1970s my 1967 Ramirez 1a blanca lived in Austin, TX in a place where the air conditioning was far from perfect. The summers could get pretty humid, the winters pretty dry. The sound of the guitar changed with humidity, a little deader when damp, a little livelier when dry, but not a radical change. The humidity never got to 100% for any extended period.

I'm a little surprised at the 660 mm string length, mine and all the other Ramirez first class flamencas I have measured have had a 655 or 656 mm scale. With a 1.5-2 mm set back of the bridge for compensation, this would give a string length in the range of 656.5 to 658 mm.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 18:25:58

a_arnold

Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

I'm a little surprised at the 660 mm string length

Richard,
You are right. I was guestimating by holding up my 650 blanca against it, and (to quote W) I misunderestimated. It actually is 656 or 657.

It was sold through Sherry Brenner in Chicago originally. Any thoughts on what that says about it?

_____________________________

"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 29 2012 22:08:21

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold
It was sold through Sherry Brenner in Chicago originally. Any thoughts on what that says about it?

The fact that Jim Sherry sold it has no effect--unless you believe karma inheres in physical objects.

Ramirez believed all his guitars were equally good. Not the same, but equally good. He was quite conscious of the fact that a guitar one talented professional fell in love with might be totally underwhelming for another. I never asked him about it, but I would be very surprised if Ramirez--or anyone else--picked and chose the guitars shipped to Sherry.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 30 2012 18:27:11

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a_arnold

I just went back to playing it this morning and with the same strings still on it, it seems to be "all better" again.

Just before it went "dead" I had carried it outside to another dehumidified building and during the 50 yard walk between, it was exposed to 100% Florida humidity. That was when it sounded dead. I thought it was the strings or a problem with the guitar. This morning, after a night in 45-50% humidity, it is back to sounding crisp again.

Very strange. Could it be so sensitive that brief exposure to high humidity could have such a big (albeit brief) effect?

Before reading this I was gonna say it's for sure the humidity. I been talking about this for years man....humidity is affecting ALL guitars this way, young and old. You can totally crack the thing if you go from one extreme to the next like that. It soaks water fast and expells slow its ok...but if it expels FAST......CRACK!!!!!!! So take it easy with the thing, it used to be a living tree!

quote:

Ramirez believed all his guitars were equally good. Not the same, but equally good. He was quite conscious of the fact that a guitar one talented professional fell in love with might be totally underwhelming for another.

In his book, he talks extensively about finishes and that as the finish slowly dries the vibrations of playing a certain way align crystals or something in a specific way and this contributes to the way the sound shapes up. In other words, a new guitar played by a certain player vs NOT played at all will be different....was what I got from him. I think it is true based on guitars I have seen, not sure for HIS reasons but guitars played hard sound better than ones that stay in the case all their life. Hard to do an objective test of course.

Hey Richard, where is the picture of us???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2012 14:35:04

tomasd

Posts: 3
Joined: Nov. 6 2012

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

I purchased a 1969 Ramirez Cedar top made by Ignacio Morlaes about 15 years ago. Same situation. This person purchased it from Ramirez and came back to California to work on computers and just stored the guitar. Played it maybe twice.
I still havent played it much.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 4:38:31

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

quote:

Is it too late to save it?

Yes it's too late to save it. It will get worse from here. I'll give you 10 bucks for it

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 18:53:35

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Need luthier advice on never-use... (in reply to a_arnold)

Don't listen to Tom, he's a con artist. I should know I bought a few guitars from
him. Ten bucks? Are you kidding...? I'll give you $20

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Nov. 9 2012 20:59:56