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RE: What is the mythology behind the smart asses on the Foro ?
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to El Norte)
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quote:
As a player with only beginning rudiments of flamenco under my belt, I joined this board expecting a few tips and pointers.
Instead I was attacked on my first post like the runt in a pack of wolves...
Good God, El Norte! The post you refer to above was dated December 6, 2010, and, as Ricardo points out, you were not personally attacked; rather, there were posts that challenged the idea that Manitas was a good flamenco guitarist. Nearly four years later are you still feeling slighted over their lack of agreement with your position? Time to let go of it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 13 2014 19:40:28
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to odinz)
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In reading over the various posts in this thread, I am struck by the effort made over and over to retain the notions of Good and Bad in art, or the notions of valid and invalid, or of functioning well or poorly, while keeping a parallel set of notions about liking or not liking some particular work. Sometimes the two sets of notions are bound up in one another; sometimes people can be "objective" and say ( or think) that, while some piece of art is Good, they just may not like it. While I understand the powerful drive to retain both sets of notions about art, it became clear to me long ago that there is actually no sound foundation underlying the idea of Good and Bad art, and that such notions are best jettisoned entirely. This leaves us free to talk about our preferences in art without assuming airs of either moral or aesthetic superiority over one another. If there is indeed Good and Bad in art, then it would be both possible and desirable to publish a master list of composers, sculptors, artists of every sort, genres, works, you name it--in ascending or descending order. Ruphus mentions Michelangelo and Repin as against Jackson Pollack. Is Repin the equal to Michelangelo? Better? Worse? I know I like Repin; I don't know if Repin is better than Georgia O'Keefe (I like some of her stuff also; not all of it, just some of it. Which O'Keefe should I like more?). This is the kind of real-world, real-art nonsense that results from dragging in Good/Bad notions into discussions of art. I personally like Journey, yet rock critics for generations have told me I should not like--I Must Not Like--Journey: they were just Bad Rock. Like losing my religion, I long ago lost my faith in critics (who disagree with me).
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Date Sep. 14 2014 9:55:57
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to runner)
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quote:
it became clear to me long ago that there is actually no sound foundation underlying the idea of Good and Bad art, and that such notions are best jettisoned entirely.
On an abstract level, I can agree with you, Runner. One can place the rotting carcass of a cow in a plexiglass enclosure and call it "art," (this has been done, by the way), although it takes no particular talent on the part of the "artist" to do it. And while the "meaning" of the piece may elude me, as long as the artist's mind extracts meaning, I suppose it does not matter whether or not I see anything morally, aesthetically, philosophically, or artistically meaningful in the piece. That I look on the piece and simply see the rotting carcass of a cow, and the fact that I grew up in Arizona and have actually seen rotting carcasses of cows that died in the desert, without anyone gathering around the carcass and commenting on how artistic and meaningful it all is, may simply indicate my lack of artistic sensibility.
Nevertheless, let's bring your notion down to the concrete example represented by El Norte's original post concerning Manitas de Plata and the responses it elicited. I don't think anyone who responded was suggesting that Manitas did not produce art. I think all would agree that he did. The question was, was it flamenco? And there I think your notion breaks down. It may be valid in the abstract realm of "art" writ large. But surely it does not hold up in discussing the various genres and sub-genres of art and music. In other words, there is a genre of music called "flamenco," and to say that "there is actually no sound foundation underlying the idea of 'Good' and 'Bad' flamenco" means that the rules and parameters governing how flamenco is performed (such as compas) can be thrown out the window by any fool who wishes to proclaim his opinion and bring the discussion down to the lowest common denominator.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 14 2014 12:10:05
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Bill, in the several previous discussions we have had on this subject, I have always made it clear that it is perfectly legitimate to discuss and judge a work of art on whether or not it is correctly and accurately labeled. Truth in Advertizing, if you like. I asked whether the Prokofiev Piano Concerto #2 is or is not Baroque. We can then fruitfully discuss Baroque, in music, in art, etc. Similarly, the place of Manitas de Plata in flamenco can be discussed, depending on one's definition of flamenco. In a way, I see you as agreeing with my point--let's talk our heads off about definitions, genres, sub-genres, time frames, influences, histories, whatever, but let's do it with some objectivity, and not drag a whole lot of Good/Bad rhetoric with its implication of moral superiority or depravity into the equation. As far as flamenco, in reviewing my posts on various forums, I've held the position all along that when flamenco has "evolved" to the point where it has become obvious to the meanest understanding that it no longer grossly resembles the music that persisted for perhaps 125 years, then it is a new thing and deserves a new name--it's not better or worse but it is different enough to require a new name. Nobody called the music of Mozart "Baroque" even though it represented an evolved form of the Baroque.
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Date Sep. 14 2014 14:25:03
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to runner)
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quote:
depending on one's definition of flamenco.
This is the root of the problem with your notion. You seem to be saying that "flamenco" is whatever anyone wants it to be. If that were the case, the term would have no meaning. In spite of university English departments flogging the post-modern idea that there is no meaning outside the text, most rational people still adhere to the quaint notion that words do, in fact, have meaning that can be applied in concrete instances. If anyone's definition of flamenco is as valid as anyone else's, regardless how the conclusion was reached and the parameters and standards used, there is no common meeting point for discussion. Language becomes unintelligible. And so does art.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 14 2014 14:59:39
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: What is the mythology behind th... (in reply to odinz)
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Bill, I freely admit to rising astonishment at the things you appear to read into my posts. Over my many posts on flamenco or any other art, I am always at pains to decry the notion that flamenco or the Baroque or any other genre is whatever anybody says it is. Please!! While all these things are open to discussion, rigorous and widely-accepted definitions can be agreed upon, and then common usage will ultimately ensure a sort of shared understanding of what people are talking about. Communication is possible. The elimination of the Good/Bad dead end has nothing to do with our ability to choose and to discuss. Is a man sitting in a chair on a stage alone, playing a guitar, flamenco? If so, how flamenco is it? We can talk about these things without being overwhelmed by premonitions of the unintelligibility of art. Manitas de Plata represents someone on or near a borderline at the edges of flamenco, and such individuals always pose areas of vigorous discussion among interested parties. I never cared for Manitas, considering him strictly a creature of the media, and not liking his music, but it has been so long since I heard any of his stuff that I can't say at this time whether or not he is flamenco. I'll get back to you on that; maybe we can discuss it.
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Date Sep. 14 2014 15:51:00
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