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So what is the mythology about Sherry Brenner?
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Ricardo)
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Sherry's Ramirez guitars with the authentic Ramirez labels were indeed made by Ramirez. Look at Ramirez's web page to learn about their labels. From the '60s onward 1a's had pale blue borders on the labels, 2a's were red or gold bordered.
The distinction between 1a and 2a models was largely cosmetic. I played some 2a's that I liked better than most 1a's, but remember, you might not like the same guitar I do.
Sherry pasted little gold "Segovia Model" labels over the 1a or 2a quality designation written on the Ramirez labels. This pissed off Jose Ramirez III to the extent that he fired Sherry as his U.S. distributor.
Once, after Ramirez fired Sherry, I mentioned Sherry's name to him. That ended the conversation. I had to go back two days later to finish picking and buying guitars.
Over a period of a few years I bought nearly two dozen 1a cedar/rosewood classicals at the shop in Concepcion Jeronima 2 in Madrid from Jose III himself. He tried to have 6 available to pick from at all times. Some I liked, some I didn't.
I could sell a 1a classical in the USA for a good deal less than Sherry did, and still make enough profit on two or three guitars to finance a trip to Spain. Jose III knew what I was doing, and didn't mind undercutting Sherry at all.
Sherry got into a variety of legal trouble over mislabeling non-Ramirez guitars. Putting a "Made in Spain" label in a Japanese guitar is against the law.
My '67 1a Ramirez blanca was bought new from Locker in Philadelphia. It doesn't have a defaced label. It's a great guitar. I like my '82 Arcangel Fernandez blanca better, but the Ramirez gets played regularly.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 18 2012 23:55:59
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C. Vega
Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to estebanana)
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The younger Barbero never used the name "Marcelino". On his own instruments, including those with the Arcangel Fernandez shop labels, he used the name Marcelo Barbero, Hijo. "Marcelino Barbero" was just another fictitious Sherry name but it was close enough to the real thing to upset more than a few people.
You can also add "Francisco Ramirez" to the Sherry roster of phony luthier names.
Before the powers that be forced Sherry to divulge the actual country of origin of his guitars, his Hernandis and Garcia guitars were labeled "Antonio Hernandis" and "Federico Garcia" and they also said "Madrid" on the labels. The later big labels that listed the materials used and their supposed places of origin (most were lies like "Spanish pine" tops and rosettes from "Persia") did show the final point of assembly as Japan.
A friend of mine once called Sherry about one of his "Barbero" guitars and Sherry told him that it was made from Spanish components assembled in Japan.
Nice try, Jimbo.
Erik,
You seem to have your facts confused. Manuel Contreras learned the craft of guitar making from Jose Ramirez, not the other way around. Contreras worked for Ramirez from 1959 until 1962 when he opened his own shop. While working in the Ramirez shop Contreras, like all the other workers, built instruments to Ramirez designs and specifications. There was no place in the Ramirez plan for individual interpretation. The guitars were all built exactly the same way and, yes, some can be quite good and others less so. Ramirez had the reputation of being a stern taskmaster who insisted on things being done his way.
The guitars were (and still are) all built by a team of people and not built entirely from start to finish by individual luthiers as is commonly assumed. The initials or numbers stamped in earlier Ramirez guitars merely indicate which worker did the major assembly of that particular guitar. The assemblers worked with batches of semi-finished parts prepared in the shop by other workers and generally worked on four instruments at a time. They essentially were putting kits together. The other workers bent sides, joined and thicknessed tops and backs, glued up and shaped necks, made rosette tiles, did the fretting, finishing, etc. and final setup and adjustments.
The final result was due more to the luck of the draw rather than which worker glued the guitar together. Some dealers and private sellers of older Ramirez guitars would have you believe that the initials of a particular worker stamped in a Ramirez guitar automatically make it a better instrument and thus more valuable and desirable. This is complete and total nonsense.
Ramirez never worked for Contreras and there's no such thing as a Contreras guitar built by Jose Ramirez....classical, flamenco or otherwise.
I like the older Ramirez guitars. I have a 1963 spruce/cypress/pegs blanca with the "I.M." stamp of Ignacio Manzano Rozas on the foot.
I also have a signed 1973 Manuel Contreras blanca with pegs. They are both very fine but very different instruments.
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Date Jul. 19 2012 21:03:49
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to C. Vega)
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I agree with Charles Vega. I bought a spruce/Brazilian "Doble Tapa" from Manuel Contreras, Sr in June 1991. I visited Contreras, Felix Manzanero, the Ramirez shop on Callle de la Paz, Bernabe and Vicente Camacho, playing instruments at all their shops.
Bernabe had no first class instruments at hand. At Bernabe's shop on Arcos de Cuchilleros, just off the Plaza Mayor, Bernabe, Jr offered me an "experimental guitar" built with first class materials and craftsmanship, but a new bracing pattern. I played a few scales. The note "A" (La) was notably louder than the rest, wherever it appeared in any octave on any string. I finished by playing just a few "A's" and handed the guitar back to Bernabe without comment. He returned it to the case.
I visited each shop at least two or three times. except for Bernabe, making comparisons. I conversed at some length with Manzanero and Contreras, Sr. Both emphasized Ramirez III's strict insistence on adherence to his design, and close supervision. They emphasized that he was a stern taksmaster. Contreras expressed his admiration for Ramirez, saying, "Where would we be without him?"
Perhaps the idea of the "Contreras" Ramirez derives from the fact that the first Ramirez that Segovia played in concerts was credited to Contreras building to Ramirez's design.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 19 2012 22:03:44
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C. Vega
Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to a_arnold)
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Erik,
If I had to make a choice I'd prefer a guitar with properly fitted pegs but, admittedly, my preference is at least partially for aesthetic reasons.
There are just too many other variables, even in seemingly "identical" guitars from the same maker, to be able to definitively say that one or the other is better for resonance, tone, volume or whatever. I have three very good flamenco guitars that I play regularly. Two have pegs and one has machines. They're all different from one another but I can't really say that any one of them is the best. To me, each has it's good and not so good points. Another player might feel differently about them. It's totally subjective.
I'm familiar with Georg Bolin's experiments. There's some information about them in a book entitled "Georg Bolins gitarrbok" (1982) by Oscar Hedlund.
The American luthier Bruce Petros tried to commercially market his own "Soundboard" amplifiers that used a spruce or cedar soundboard instead of a cone-type speaker a number of years ago. They did work but the idea never really caught on.
There have been any number of non-electrical sound enhancement devices over the years, like the "resonance box" that classical guitarist Paul Galbraith uses, that were tried and abandoned. Galbraith still uses one but it is much smaller than the original one that he used that looked like a coffin with "f" holes.
There will always be a few people who will jump on the gimmick bandwagon and extoll the virtues of whatever "revelation" may be fashionable this week but in all honesty I think that if these things really offered any appreciable improvement a lot more serious players would be using them.
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Date Jul. 21 2012 14:57:58
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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My 1967 Ramirez 1a blanca originally had pegs. They never were as good as some other pegs I was acquainted with. When I bought a classical with machine tuners I became less satisfied with the accuracy achievable with the pegs.
Jose Ramirez III offered to replace the pegs with machines at no cost, but I never had the guitar in Spain at a convenient time. Frank Ford at Gryphon in Palo Alto, California refused to do the job, saying it would "compromise the character of the instrument," even though I pointed out that the maker himself was willing to do it.
Eventually Kenny Hill's shop replaced the pegs with a set of Gotoh tuners. I perceived no change in the sound of the guitar, and I have been quite happy with the machines ever since.
My 1982 Arcangel Fernandez blanca has Fustero machines. It is my favorite of all flamenco guitars I have ever played.
Still, if I were to commission a new flamenca, and I felt the luthier could do a good job with pegs, I would ask for them. If they don't work out, you can always replace them with machines.
One big advantage of pegs is that fewer people will ask to play your guitar.
RNJ
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Date Jul. 21 2012 17:08:18
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: So what is the mythology about S... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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Thanks, guys. This is a big help. I was traveling to rehearsal for an upcoming concert and couldn't respond until now. But, based on what you have said, it seems like the non-rumor-based consensus is this: Sherry Brenner was sleazy but his Ramirez guitars are at least real Ramirez guitars, and probably are as worthy of a trial as any other Ramirez.
So I'm having one sent to me that, based on its history, has a chance of being a good guitar.
It's in the mail to me now: a 1969 peghead cedar-top blanca with the relieved bass-side fingerboard mentioned in one of the posts above.
I am attaching a pic of the neck block. The initials are either OP or CP -- I think CP but the C could be an imperfect O stamp. IF ANYONE HAS A RAMIREZ WITH A "C" STAMP IN IT, I'D BE GRATEFUL IF YOU COULD LOOK AND COMPARE WHETHER THIS "C" LOOKS LIKE YOUR "C". (See attached photos).
Assuming "CP" my resources suggest Pedro Contreras or Cayetano Alvarez Luna, who both used the same initials, but the order seems to be reversed(?) unless there is something I don't understand about initial conventions. I don't know what is under the Sherry Brenner label, but the 1969 Ramirez label seems to have the pale blue edge that I think means 1A, Yes?
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
 Attachment (2)
_____________________________
"Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it."
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Date Jul. 22 2012 2:38:04
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