Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods and David Serva who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? 

I've been browsing through the archives using the search function, learning tons of new stuff (thank you everyone for your willingness to share and collaborate with us novices). So, for my first build I got a bloodwood bridge blank and also a bloodwood fingerboard through LMI. When I chose that wood for those pieces I was thinking much more aesthetically than practically and now I see that bloodwood is not just dense, but incredibly dense (.95 specific gravity, versus .75 for Rosewood). Comparable to snakewood. I read a post from Anders (I believe) where he said he would not use snakewood (or bloodwood I am assuming) as bridge material because it would be impossible to get it down to the appropriate weight. And with the fretboard being an even bigger piece....

Can I thin the fretboard a bit more than the plans call for to shave weight? I am using Courtnall's 1933 Santos plan
Can I make the bridge a bit lighter/thinner (considering bloodwood is stronger than Indian Rosewood, from what I understand)?
Or, should I just forget the bloodwood and go pick up something else for the bridge/fingerboard?

In terms of aesthetics, I didn't want to go the traditional route of spruce/cypress and rosewood binding. I am looking to get a natural-looking white and red (and a bit of black) theme going. The soundboard and neck is Port Orford Cedar, and the back/sides are Monterey Cypress. I also ordered ebony pegs from LMI, so maybe a black colored wood would look nice for the bridge and fingerboard. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance, William
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 13:15:58
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Why not ebony for the fingerboard?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 13:38:26
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfrancis86
The soundboard and neck is Port Orford Cedar, and the back/sides are Monterey Cypress. I also ordered ebony pegs from LMI, so maybe a black colored wood would look nice for the bridge and fingerboard. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance, William

Is this an accurate statement? You intend to use Port Orford Cedar for the neck and top? I think you're making a big mistake.

The Bloodwood I've used made really attractive bindings but was much too heavy for the bridge. Like most very dense, heavy hardwoods it is rather unstable and would require a very long cure time (years) before using it for a fingerboard. I used the last of the planks I had several years ago in furniture.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 15:19:04
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to jshelton5040

Would you mind explaining the problem with using POC for both the top and the neck? I haven't read anything about using the same wood for these parts, is that the issue?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 16:09:09
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Port Orford would probably make a top, but it might be too soft for a neck. There have been lots of old Spanish guitars made with fir necks and lots of heels made of fir on lower end instruments, they are still stable. Have one right there that belongs to me.

Port Orford can vary in flexibility across the grain, it could be too flexible. If it where me, I would not hesitate to put seven good supportive fans on it and some high up closing fans. But for the neck sticking to the tried and true light mahagony or Spanish Cedar will be better. Keep it to the regular woods first and then experiment later if you must.

Port Orford could make a nine top, but I wager it will have a dark creamy sound. I've thought about it and not totally dismissed the idea. It has been used on steel string guitars with success. When picking spruce I steer away from hard "glassy" sounding wood or too soft limpid sound. I want something in the middle that is strong and light. With Port Orford I would look for a piece that was more glassy. Just my intuition for what its worth. I've handled a lot of PO and that is what the great spirit of Santos Hernandez channels to me.

Seance over.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 17:18:03
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 568
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Les Stansell makes entire guitars out of port orford (including neck). Maybe he has some particularly strong pieces, I don't know, but it seems it can be done.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 17:28:34
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

That's interesting, I only question the possibility of fingernail marking the wood. Other than that sure, it's strong wood.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 17:50:41
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfrancis86

Would you mind explaining the problem with using POC for both the top and the neck? I haven't read anything about using the same wood for these parts, is that the issue?

I can only speak from my personal experience since the quality of wood varies considerably from tree to tree but the Port Orford Cedar I have handled and have in stock has a taptone about as exciting as Balsa. I would consider it a possible substitute for Cypress back and sides but never as a top wood. There's a reason that most high quality nylon string guitar makers use only Spanish Cedar for necks. It is stable, resists bending, doesn't take a set and tends to be very light. It is also very easy to carve and readily available from wood vendors so why use anything else? If you want to experiment with materials why don't you wait until after you've built a couple of guitars?

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 18:16:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Balsa.. come on John, it's better than that. It's at least as fun as basswood, the other white trash species.

Here's the issue with Port Orford as a top; in order to get it light enough and thin enough it could turn into a mushburger of cross grain strength. So you would be working with thicker dimensions than the other cedar or spruce to keep it strong. It's a trade off between strength and weight.

Spruce is a strong wood for it's weight, that why it's so good. There's a reason instrument makers came to chose it hundreds (500 -600 and more ) years ago over other woods.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 18:37:42
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Thanks for the feedback so far, interesting reading. Speaking of Les Stansell, he (and also Peter Tsiorba's use of atypical tone woods) somewhat inspired me to choose Port Orford... Are his guitars not very well respected or something? The look nice and sound pretty nice on youtube videos. He has the following to say about the wood: “It is the ultimate “structural grade” wood and has the highest strength to weight ratio of all wood species. It is among the toughest and most elastic of softwoods and due to its fibrous interlocking grain structure it is extremely resistant to splitting and is very dimensionally stable. When compared to traditional neck woods, PO Cedar rivals both the lightness of Spanish Cedar and the stiffness of Honduras Mahogany…….. and with its very small, almost microscopic pores it finishes out like glass (with no pre-filling) to a look of aged ivory".

This quote seems to go contrary to what a jshelton and estebanana are saying. But as you guys said, each tree is going to be different. I'll wait to here what others have to say, but definitely note taken.

Also, Peter offered to give me a tutorial on thicknessing the top so I am hoping that he will have some valuable insight for me. Ordering a new fingerboard and bridge is all I can really afford at the moment... maybe a cedar neck blank if its decided the PO has to go. Please keep the opinions coming, I appreciate it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 21:24:18
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

I've had the opportunity to hear and play a handfull of Les' guitars, PO backs with PO tops and with cedar and spruce tops. All excellent.
Pedro Cortes was here recently and sampled a couple, was impressed.

It seems there is substantial variability in this wood and judgment needed in selecting the actual pieces for the various parts, and so it seems a wood where generic notions can be both accurate and off target.
Les has access to a large selection.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 21:36:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

quote:

This quote seems to go contrary to what a jshelton and estebanana are saying.


No I said I only think it would nailmark...read closely I never said it would not work. I went on to cite other non Spanish cedar woods Spanish guitars have been made of.

People have also used a wood called Black Limba to make necks with much success. I as just saying go with what is traditional for the first ones.

And I respect Les Stancels work, not sure who did it first, but my guitar from Chris Berkov made in 1998 was Port Orford Cedar. I had not seen any flamenco prior to that where Port Orford was used. I began using it around 2000 when I got a big bundle of it resawn.

Port Orford makes excellent guitars and I've see over time how they age. I happen to prefer it for back and sides. It does have qualities that I like. It is tough to break. Over time it also case hardens, the wood oxidizes adn gets a tough skin on it. This makes them even lighter and less dense over time which means more resonating qualities.

I'm not as inclined to use it as a top, but I have not ruled it out. I gave my speculation as to how to go about it. Pick one that is stiff and light.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 22:10:28
 
Shawn Brock

 

Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

I have heard good things about Peter's POC tops, and Les's guitars as well. I haven't played a POC top guitar myself, so can't comment on that at all. For me, (and this is just me), I didn't care for the instruments I have played which were built with POC back and sides... That don't mean that good instruments aren't made from POC, it just means that its not the tone for me, or hasn't been so far from my experience. It seems to be a little more lyrical and darker over all. That's a good thing for some players and not for others.

I think that I had heard that Les would sell wood to folks, so maybe you could check with him if that's the way you want to go.

Wouldn't POC be to porous for a neck?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 23:36:48
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2975
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

I haven't seen any Port Orford personally, is it similar to Alaskan Yellow Cedar?
Alaskan (aka Canadian Cypress) makes great guitar back and sides but is just a little too heavy for its stiffness to use for a top IMO. I wouldn't mind using it for a neck though because it's super stable and is great to carve. Again don't know about POC.

Bloodwood is a bitch to work with for anything but bindings/purflings/rosettes and is way too heavy for a bridge. If you do nothing else right on the whole guitar use a nice 15 gram rosewood bridge... the weight there is super important. Padauk would be a decent bridge option and it's something I want to try.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2012 23:51:40
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Make anything you want ever. Make everything. It will probably sound good. f*ck the people who tell you not to. just go for it.

_____________________________

[signature][/signature]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 1:56:47
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to HemeolaMan

haha, that's one way of looking at it...

No, but really, thanks for all the responses. The order has already been placed with LMI and scheduled delivery date is tomorrow. I was most concerned about the bloodwood fingerboard and bridge, and it seems unanimous that these have to go. Luckily these pieces aren't too expensive to replace, the soundboard and neck on the other hand would be quite pricey. I was basically crossing my fingers hoping I was going to hear good things as opposed to bad. It seems jshelton doesn't care much for PO. And I went back and read your reply Estebana and yes you were only questioning the potential of marking the neck... I will be applying a nitrocelloluse laquer finish so maybe this will help in terms of marking?? Also, in terms of stiffness in the top, I'm hoping Peter will be able to help me there using his experience with the wood. Maybe I'll shoot Les Stansell an email and see if he has anything to say about it.

Deteresa1, what interests you in using Padauk as a bridge material?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 2:28:45
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 91
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

...and by the way, I remain very happy with my PO/spruce guitar !

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=198971&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#199132
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 4:40:53
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: HemeolaMan

Make anything you want ever. Make everything. It will probably sound good. f*ck the people who tell you not to. just go for it.

What a clever response and so helpful for a beginner!

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 14:11:17
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

Make anything you want ever. Make everything. It will probably sound good. f*ck the people who tell you not to. just go for it.


Do you really feel this way? or are you joking? lol. Ok, I'm going to say you haven't built many guitars. I don't know.. If you have, then you'd know that not every wood produces a good sound. I'm all for experimenting because that's how you learn. However, it has been through my experimenting that I know not everything will work and sound good.

The best advise I can give wfrancis86 is just stick with the traditional woods first if this is his first guitar and see if he can build a decent instrument with the traditional material. Then, after that, start experimenting with other materials but really listen to the advise other luthiers have if they give a negative response to some of those materials because they are giving him a word of caution and trying to keep him from making a mistake and wasting money.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 17:13:43
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

What a clever response and so helpful for a beginner!

_____________________________


Forgive him, the heat in Chicago has cooked his cranial organs. He's coming to CA to cool off in August. I will knock some sense into him.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 18:37:36
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to estebanana

Don't be too harsh on him - last week no-one could tell the difference between plywood and spruce!

_____________________________

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music - Angela Monet
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 18:51:41
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Well considering your not going to get a piece of ebony from LMI that will be any more seasoned then that piece of bloodwood you may as well use it. The bridge, if you want to keep the reddish theme swap it for Padauk, it won't stay as red as the bloodwood but it will be much more suitable. You body is small by todays standards, I think you should be fine even if the top has a little less cross grain stiffness. Everyone pretty much says the same thing about POC, it taps like **** and yet some people still make great sounding guitars with it, so maybe just the golpe will suck. The neck I can't comment on because I've never handled POC and don't know how soft it is. AYC I have used for a neck once, its held up fine without any additional stiffeners for years, it was harder and harder to carve then Spanish Cedar while being lighter in weight.

I do agree you probably should have went with the standards given your experience but I don't think your project is doomed just yet.
Unless of course you decide to keep the bloodwood bridge, then your pretty much screwed

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 20:33:32
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2975
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

quote:

Deteresa1, what interests you in using Padauk as a bridge material?


I'm kind of excited about Padauk lately. I made a guitar out of it recently that was probably my best... the stuff just has an unbelievably cool tap-tone (marimba-like but even more musical than IR to my ears and a little less glassy).

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 10 2012 22:23:52
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

No offense guys,

guitars these days bore the sh*t out of me.

I should like to see our man just go for it and figure it all out. one of the biggest barriers for me in getting started was actually this foro. Too much conservative thought, too many rules, too much advice. I wish I had just plunged in head first.

So, much as I love you guys and appreciate all the advice I had gotten (believe me it felt good to be taken care of) I wish someone would have set me on my way and said "go f*ck it up a few times! it's okay!"

The man is an adult, andragogical learning is one of the most effective methods for adults.

_____________________________

[signature][/signature]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 0:42:32
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

You've got a point, and that's why I am going forward with the POC top and neck (also because of my budget). Yeah, I'm not going to be reproducing the sound of Santos Hernandez (this aspiration that some builders have is simply unrealistic), but who's to say this tonewood won't produce a "nice" side, maybe not Hernandez, maybe not traditional flamenco blanca sound, but it can still be "nice".

On the other hand, I don't think anyone was saying don't do it, they were just saying that the POC they have handled didn't seem to be cut out for a blanca in terms of what they expect and like to hear from a blanca (they wouldn't do it; Estebana is thinking about it). So one side I want to experiment a bit (even though it is my first guitar build), but I do have a sound and feel in my mind and so the feedback about the bloodwood as a fingerboard and bridge was very useful. I simply don't have the experience to know these kinds of things and so I come here and listen to what the tried and true experts have to say in order to get educated and orientated... doesn't mean I am going to do everything they suggest. A luthier (better said, any artist) needs to find their own voice, and after trial and error (and some wasted money) I think people can find their voice. I think this is what HemeolaMan is saying.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 1:34:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to HemeolaMan

quote:

The man is an adult, andragogical learning is one of the most effective methods for adults.



Hemi,

Is that a college boy way of saying 'trial and error' ?

(I'm sorry I can't help myself, I owe you dinner for that one. )

Yur pal,
Esteban

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 2:00:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

quote:

....sound of Santos Hernandez (this aspiration that some builders have is simply unrealistic),


WFrancis,
Stay away from "sound goal oriented" guitar making. Make your own sound as it comes naturally. The spirit of guitar making is about taking chances, and it seems like you are not afraid. Building from a fear based point of view is a real turn off to me. It always sounds like whining, "I'm afraid if this or that".....aahhggg.. Refreshing to hear some one have conviction and just do it.

You're right, just do your thing, and tell me how your POC top turns out and how you did it, because then you will be contributing to my education.

Stephen

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 2:04:57
 
wfrancis86

 

Posts: 36
Joined: Jun. 30 2012
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Will do Stephen, and thanks for the support. This site is really amazing to me because I have been studying flamenco guitar for about 6 years or so (never played an instrument before that; I'm 26 now) and it can be really frustrating how secretive and stand-offish players (flamencos in general) can be. Whereas on this site, luthiers who have spent a good amount of their lives studying and building flamenco guitars (and I don't suspect any of you that post here are making fortunes off your trade either) are completely the opposite, and are willing to share so openly. Maybe it is because of what you are saying Stephen, the mistakes we newbies make along the way are also valuable learning experiences for the veterans (or reinforcement of their theories at the least). I will be building this guitar alongside my father who made fine furniture for 35 years and is now retired from that trade. Not to say furniture-making is anything like luthiery, but I believe we can come up with something nice. That's my only goal at the moment.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 15:53:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 8548
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to wfrancis86

Forgot to mention myself and lots of others use Port Orford for brace wood all the time. Fans, structural braces, liners, glue blocks, tail blocks etc. all good. The cello I'm building has PO neck and tail block and liners. I'm going to use PO for the top of the viola I have coming up to build too. Just have not used it on guitar top yet.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 11 2012 18:40:33
 
Mordorito

 

Posts: 50
Joined: Aug. 11 2012
From: Delaware, USA

RE: bloodwood for bridge/fingerboard? (in reply to estebanana

I spoke with Les Stansell a couple months ago regarding POC as a neck material. He uses a truss in his POC necks. Although, he did seem to think that a truss was not 100 percent needed. He has really cool time-lapse videos on YouTube that document his building process and the installation of the truss does not look too difficult. My Internet research of POC did come up with some information stating that POC has an oil in it that makes it a serious diuretic, and therefore can be hard on one's kidneys with heavy exposure. While I think this is more of a concern for sawmill workers, I thought I should at least mention it...especially if their is a luthier out their who already has kidney problems.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2012 13:46:11
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

7.421875E-02 secs.