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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
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El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
i see the page but it doesnt help much as it is just a list of abeto woods .
It is really a type of fir tree, and of which there are different colours and types ( red , white etc) and sub types ,
turns up in Spanish wikipedia as abeto comun o abeto blanco
in fact it seems to have a lot of sub groups and many names for the same thing
I knew there were some but not as many as i see here , i copy this for names list ..

Castellano: abete, abeto, abeto blanco, abeto-branco, abeto común, abeto de Escocia, abeto de hoja de tejo, abeto de hojas de tejo, abeto de Normandía, abeto noble, abeto pectinado, abeto plateado, abetuna, abetunas, picea, pinabete, pinabete común, pinavete, pino-abeto, sapino. Altoaragonés: abet, abete, abetina, abeto. Aragonés: abet, abete, abetuna, abetunas, abez, bet, pibet, pinabete.

But anyway its basically a christmas tree,.......

Also I read a cabinet maker writing about this wood

Las maderas se diferencian por cinco caracteristicas: Color, veta, dureza, higroscopicidad (absorcion de humedad) y el costo

Abeto y pino es la misma familia de las Coniferas (ramaje en forma conica), Abeto es un tipo o variedad de pino. Es muy usado como arbol de navidad. Como en casi todos los pinos lo hay blanco y lo hay rojo.

El pino Abeto o cualquier otro, es de color blanco o rojo, de veta abundante y marcada, consistencia blanda, muy higroscopico, de bajo costo en relacion a otras maderas.
La variedad de pino o Abeto rojo absorbe menos humedad que la variedad blanca, por que es aceitoso, mas resinoso.

and so it goes on as he talks about how to polish it etc , but anyway all these trees are somewhat similar in terms of the type being pine/fir trees ,,, spruce, pine etc .......and different ones grow at different heights and regions .....
So the word pino abeto could and probably does refer to different types of tree depending on who is talking and where they are ,................
its still a christmas tree though .........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 13:11:10
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: El Kiko

its still a christmas tree though .........


Speaking to a few dozen Spanish speaking guitarreros over the years, pino abeto (or pinabete) has always meant spruce. Jose Ramirez III claimed, rather vociferously, to be the first to use cedar. In his book he uses the scientific name, thuja plicata.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 14:12:56
 
Sr. Martins

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Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
In portugal, pinho and abeto means the same too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 14:20:11
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
in postings at acguitar some refer to spanish pine as sherry-speak for red western cedar. i am inclined to go with that since sherry used these japanese made guitars are ramirez wanna be guitars. but who knows it could be pine trees harvested in spain. sherry also claimed the rosettes were made in persia. persia? either those rosettes were made before 1935 or sherry and the ayatollah had some special arrangement post 1979. here it is 2012 moving towards 2013 and jim sherry continues to haunt us.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 15:07:54
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
All popular words for plants have these problems.
The best example is that Western Red Cedar is NOT a cedar but a thuya... and so on and on and on.
Here in Spain, Pino abeto and Abeto means spruce (all kinds) and Pino means fir and pine (all kinds)
So what is the difference in English between fir and pine?????

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 15:45:30
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to keith) 
Pinabeto is a tree related to spruce, found in the sierras of Spain, but not a true spruce, in guitar terms. The latin name is different. It was extensively used in cheaper Spanish guitars in post war years when top quality wood was hard to find. The only way to differentiate wood is to use the latin name: common names only lead to confusion, maple being a prime example.

I bought a guitar with this top in the 70´s for 900pts, and it is very acceptable. I have repaired many in the taller de Rafael. He was of the opinion that nowadays the tree is protected, since it is found mostly in what are now Parques Nacionales.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 15:46:40
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
Fellas, the point was sometimes the term "Spanish Pine" used by certain dealars or importers and taken literally in English to mean Pine.

We all know at this point you must be specific about taxonomy then differentiating between the Pines Spruces, Firs and "Cedars".

So the problem, and the Europeans may not know this, is there were a handful of flamenco books written in English from the late 1950's through the early 1970's which used the terms Pinabete or the taxamomically correct Pina Abeto to identify top woods in flamenco guitars.

The confusion arises and was perpetuated by a misunderstanding of translation. Pinabete was transcribed as 'Spanish Pine' because it is a false cognate. Remember a cognate is word can be spelled the same or almost the same in two languages, or sounds the same or looks to have the same roots. A false cognate is a word that sounds the same but means something else. The Pina part of pinabete was translated to mean in common non taxonomic English generic Pine, which is false.

That is all it is. A technical mistake in translation which persisted and confused people for about 30 or 40 years.

And anyway we were talking about plywood.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 16:37:48
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
that was my point the people calling things 'Spanish pine' or whatever are not botanists and hence do not have to be so correct ...so it will vary from region to region ...and evryone is correct ...where he lives .....all of these things you disscuss ar from the same family.
Fir and pine trees are both conifers, have cones, and aremembers of the same plant family, Pinaceae, their plant group names are different. Fir trees are members of the genus Abies; whereas pine trees belong to Pinus.
There are some subtle differences , like that pine trees have needles that grow on clusters and that fir trees needles grow on the tree, for example ..
there are more than 100 types of pine tree,
there are more differences to do with how and where they grow etc .anyway I am not a botanist either I just like trees and live in the country ...

But here is something in English that may help ,,,...
Spruce vs. fir vs. pine: How to tell them apart

http://www.finegardening.com/plants/articles/spruce-fir-pine.aspx

I still say christmas tree covers all ................

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 19:18:04
 
estebanana

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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
Next time I go to the lumber yard and can't distinguish between them, I'll ask the yardman to provide me with needle samples.

I meant point out the translation problem because I don't want the Euros to get huffy about pine. It's clear that the Spanish makers understood taxonomy of species, I don't want it to be suggested they can't tell the difference. the issue was in translation.

But I will say, I bet I could make a good guitar with either pine or fir and do a blind test and many would hear it as spruce or cedar. I've already made flamencos with Sitka, a species many American classical makers reject as improper for nylon guitars. One very famous guy who is not around any longer said "Sitka is too 'sibilant' to make a classical guitar." ( Fir likes to crack along the grain which makes it questionable as a for sale guitar, pine from and old chest of drawer would make a good top. It's said Robert Bouchet made his first guitar out of a pine shelf he resawed by hand. I wonder if it was really pine? I bet it was. )

Sibilant means hissing sounds. I've never heard any spruce hiss.



"Wood is wood is wood, even plywood."
Gertrude Sprucestein

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 19:45:01
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
My swing around guitar (*3) is made with Sitka and it doesnt hiss at all. In fact, its very nice.

My wife´s father was from a lonesome part of Castilla and he didn´t use to many useless words. In his region there are 2 kinds of trees. Pine and poplar. So he called them pine and tree.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 22:00:00
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
Yes I see , I dont know as I have reached the far end of my tree knowledge ,...

I just really assumed it was due to such a huge variety of coniferous trees that the ones that grew in Spain , and some other places were kind of nicknamed into Spanish pine , being of the pine type tree and native now to Spain ...thats all....

I thought Sitka (spruce ) was used in many guitars and other instruments as well , Im sure Ive heard of it in guitars ,,,, .but how it compares to others , like Engleman I dont know ...
Yes , I knew the word sibilant ( but I looked it up again anyway so as to seem intelligent )., I came across it a while ago in an article about Harry Potter... .......Anyway in this context I wondered if it meant too trebley,or brilliant , for a classical guitar that is ,or maybe not used for a negra ,.....hissing being a treble sound ...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 22:25:12
 
estebanana

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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
You have kids under 10 don't you Kiko?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 3 2012 22:39:37
 
jshelton5040

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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I've already made flamencos with Sitka, a species many American classical makers reject as improper for nylon guitars.


So have I and found them unsatisfactory with a nasal quality (sibilant?). One wood I've considered for top wood is Tamarack (Larch). It has a lovely tap tone and beautiful grain and color with little or no runout in the pieces I've seen. Unfortunately the trees seldom get very large so it's hard to find one that will produce tops.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2012 0:21:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
Sitka can be ropey and tough, I think that might be what makers are talking about as a negative quality.

I found some really old soft Sitka 5 quarter in a lumber yard and bought a bunch. It was not as dense as some Sitka can be, it would have been graded rather low by a wood dealer. I think the softer more pliable the Sitka the better it can make nice nylon string instruments. I gave some of that wood to Eugene Clark and he made a masterpiece with it. Two piece top with wings.

To me wood is wood, I just look for pieces that feel right and have the right flexibility and density. John Gilbert seems to have used a lot of the Sitka, which makes me wonder; I got the Sitka from a lumber yard near where he lives that he must know about.

If you find a Larch that is 15" in diameter you could make a three piece top. Or one with wings. I don't understand why makers today don't make more tops with wings, it's an old practice.

I'm sitting on some California Nutmeg, it's yellow like Alaskan Cedar, but it smells like pumpkin pie. Not sure yet what to build with it.

What I want is a jar full of Larch resin for making varnish.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2012 1:28:29
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

You have kids under 10 don't you Kiko?

yeah...an 8 year old and twins 6 ...man thats work............only one shows an interest in music so far ....Star wars and space ships are very popular in my house ...or anything that explodes basically,....
Actually a guitar I am messing with at the moment is nice and powerful and the bass is good , but I would like it to be a bit more sibilant , ( see i got it into a useful sentence ) Titanium trebles might help a bit .....



Anders..I see you are no longer a penguin ,,, but some kind of flower ?// aaahhh

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 4 2012 15:45:18
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
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RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Now I would like to hear everyones conclusions about what this means to them. And then I'll give my conclusion about how it played and why I did this.

( not about my playing or method of recording ect. but about the guitar )


What it means to me (you said you wanted to hear) - my conclusions...

...Plywood - hurrah - would love one of your finest as my prize?

Why did I say plywood:

I've a student 'flamenco' guitar that I bought at the Conde shop in Atocha many years ago (you probably know the shop (and hate it??) - I lived in Getafe so Atocha station was drop off point to get into the center of Madrid - walked past the shop every time I went for a beer - at this point 'flamenco' was some stuff that a bloke played in Plaza Mayor, real guitar was played by Micheal Schenker, Steve Vai and SRV).

Anycase...when I strap a new set of strings to this guitar it sounds great - as it did in the shop...but I thought the guitar was killing strings; dull as a doorstep after a few days (I opened a thread a while ago about this point).

I tried to find some sense to this so I tried restringing this guitar at the same time as a more reputable Conde from Fillipe V and played them both as much as possible for a couple of weeks. I then swapped the strings between the two guitars - not very scientific...?

The conclusions I came to - the cheap guitar was pretty good at amplifying the new strings that were rich with overtones but added no real depth or character of its own - I'm pretty sure it's a plywood top, hard to tell with the thick Essex-girl-orange artificial suntan. The other guitar produced its own tone with old strings.

What do you think?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2012 17:31:46
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to prd1) 
quote:

What do you think?


I will pipe in as I have done similar experiments. My opinion is that folks underestmate the affects of humidity on sound. I have seen dull cheap guitars with dead strings suddenly liven up on a different day or in a different environment.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2012 17:50:51
 
prd1

 

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Cheers Ricardo - that's an interesting observation.

I think most builders have humidity control firmly ingrained into their everyday process...but I've no idea under what conditions these guitars was built - both were played and stored in the room where I build - not perfectly controlled but kept within 45-60% humidity range.

My point was that a well built guitar will dutifully reproduce the input from the strings, even if it is made with 'inferior materials' but as the influence from the new string reduces the sound of the guitar takes over...how many players have put a new set of strings on their guitar to find that they sound horrible only to go back the following day to find find that the guitar is settling in?

Only my observation - try not to rip me to shreds if you guys don't agree!!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2012 18:15:16
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to El Kiko) 
We had 3 Prudencio Saez mod.20 and one of those wasnt played much because it had an accident early on. One day I repaired it and even after a year it sounded like **** compared to the other two and the strings would get dull and yellow pretty fast on that guitar. I guess it had something to do with the rosewood fretboard that hadnt been used for many years and might had turned into a chemical reactor
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 7 2012 18:26:10
 
krichards

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Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: What is the top wood on this guitar? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

My opinion is that folks underestmate the affects of humidity on sound. I have seen dull cheap guitars with dead strings suddenly liven up on a different day or in a different environment.


Absolutely agree.
Also there are other suble factors like condition of nails, change in the acoustics of the room by drawing blinds and curtains, temperature variation between morning and evening, etc. So many variables, its very difficult to do any controlled test on a guitar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2012 9:15:00
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