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taking time away
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estebanana
Posts: 8748
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 taking time away
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I've been thinking the last day, you know this place has changed in some way. And I need to think about how and where it may be going. So I'm going to take a break for an undetermined amount of time and observe what happens. The changes have to do with a certain brand of egotism that happens when some people commission guitars.
The egotism comes into play because traditionally there was has been a way to ask a luthier to create a musical instrument work of art for you. It has been done with trust and with a discreet, but solid agreement between guitarist and luthier. Commissioning a work as a public statement has a show off air to it. It lacks modesty and personal connection. It's like saying look at me, I'm patronizing so and so. As a luther I find this a huge turn off. Not only is it embarrassing, but it really goes against the intimate trust one ideally needs to create sincerely for your patron.
I'm watching to see if it continues, or diminishes enough to put up with. The idea that one can call for information from luthiers with the intent of dangling a commission in front group and awarding it to the whom the dangler feels is the luthier who is the best lameculo disgusts me.
This discussion forum is devoted to discussing things related to making pieces of wood into guitars. Some of the fascinating topics include threads about why a hand cut rasp has a more satisfying and sure cut than a machine cut rasp. Or new news about products like which types of tuners that luthiers use. At it's best this forum is informative, humorous and fosters a group of luthiers with diverse personalities and temperaments to discuss these topics about luthery.
At it's worst this foro gets taken advantage of by people who want to glean information from luthiers without contributing or putting any work or thought into what they may be doing and asking. The changes or current state on the foro bring to mind formats like Craigslist or eBay. Along with inquiries about guitar making have come, to me at least, distasteful and destructive kinds of egotism and entitlement that is counter productive to talking about making guitars.
Not everyone will see this as an important point that is a part of the art of creating for another person. But then again there are a lot of brutish people in the world. Commerce is commerce, but guitar makers are not whores you can manipulate and be cruel to, to show how many guitars you can commission to satisfy your own ego.
I hope the foro continues to be purely about guitar making and does not turn into a commercial free for all for those who would pit guitar makers against one another to see if the competition gets them a cheap guitar. Because that is exactly where it is headed now.
E.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jun. 20 2012 5:51:48
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: taking time away (in reply to estebanana)
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Hi estebanana,
I can't say I've noticed all this negativity towards luthiers myself.
I think the tough economic times have cast a bit of a shadow over all our lives and is affecting everyone's outlook.
Ricardo has suffered the same sort of stuff over the years where folk will ask him detailed questions about technique etc and ask him to post a video clip to illustrate...but they would never think of booking any paid lessons or buying his CD.
I ordered a guitar from Anders a few years ago and just told him I wanted a negra and would leave all the details to him. Who was I to tell him his job?
I get the same sort of crap from customers who know a little bit about electronics telling me how to fix their equipment, sometimes telling me things like "I think it's just a faulty capacitor or diode somewhere or other".
I get cheeky now and say, "Oh thanks for the tip! That'll make the job MUCH easier..."
Or telling me, "I'm sure it's nothing much...you'll probably see the problem as soon as you open it up", implying, "I know this won't cost much to fix".
(I love when jobs like that turn out to be unrepairable!  )
Even doctors are getting tired of folk coming into their surgery and telling them exactly what's wrong with them and what medication they require.."because they read it on the Internet".
The Internet has turned us all into cheapskate knowalls now with little respect for each others profession, trade or skill and always expecting bargain basement prices and is not something exlusive only to the members of Foroflamenco.
There is also a trend for customers to go into a store and waste the sales guy's time by looking at something, trying it out and asking heaps of detailed questions....then going home and ordering it from Amazon or Ebay.
The whole world has changed, not just the foro.
Just the way the world is now amigo!
cheers,
Ron
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Date Jun. 20 2012 6:37:44
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Ricardo
Posts: 13833
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: taking time away (in reply to estebanana)
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In that other thread the luthier challenge thing I proposed was a joke of course, but it was clear at that point folks getting bent out of shape over a couple of "guitar players" crawling out of the woodwork to stir up some **** regarding pitting guitar builders against each other. Sure, the luthier that ended up with the "commission" finally should have been like "oh I see what you are up to buddy, screw you I won't build you ****" or even better, build him a crap guitar on purpose and sell it. But it is pretty minor BS. Guitar players, real ones, will simply gravitate to good guitars...we don't care about your opinions and methodologies I promise. For sure the dirty laundry of "oh you jerk i called you about this the other day and bla bla bla" is not necessary on the open forum. Hell I can imagine if all the on goings of my local gigs got aired on on here!!!!
If it were me estebanana, I would just blow the whole thing off and keep talking about guitars. Prices don't matter interms of undercutting...you guys always jump on "factory" guitars and such, it's not a big deal. Just do your thing guys. I can't believe "guitar players" would choose a guitar based on a luthiers comments about how they build. For example, a while back Anders was talking up that ****ty Ramirez 1A classical of Juan Serrano and I was in shock cuz his guitars are WAY better than that!
If want to advertise my own guitar build on a foro I would simply say "wow guys my new guitar looks, smells, sounds and plays EXACTLY like a conde....come get em!!!".
About these cheaper luthier made guitars that sound amazing brand new...nothing you all can say that will convince me otherwise that in 10 years all those thin topped feather weight things are gonna implode.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jun. 20 2012 15:46:58
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ralexander
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
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RE: taking time away (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
In that other thread the luthier challenge thing I proposed was a joke of course
Absolutely, I don't think that's what Stephen was referring to in his OP. And your post was not what I was referring to, either.
Anyway, I think this is an interesting discussion. In the end, I also just want a good guitar but I do actually care about knowing something about the luthier and how they work. That's just me. It's a lot of money to put out on faith if you haven't played a particular luthier's guitar, and I think it's a bit of a mental block to just say "do your thing" and let it be. I'm currently waiting on one of Stephen's Port Orford Cedar blancas, and I would like to think that I've been a good customer, respectful of his ability. I did try to give him a general idea of what I wanted using recorded examples of other guitars, but I felt like a bit of a D-bag doing so. But then, we have to communicate what we like somehow, right?
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Date Jun. 20 2012 16:41:15
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: taking time away (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
, but it was clear at that point folks getting bent out of shape over a couple of "guitar players" crawling out of the woodwork to stir up some **** regarding pitting guitar builders against each other. Sure, the luthier that ended up with the "commission" finally should have been like "oh I see what you are up to buddy, screw you I won't build you ****" or even better, build him a crap guitar on purpose and sell it. But it is pretty minor BS. Guitar players, real ones, will simply gravitate to good guitars...we don't care about your opinions and methodologies I promise. For sure the dirty laundry of "oh you jerk i called you about this the other day and bla bla bla" is not necessary on the open forum. Hell I can imagine if all the on goings of my local gigs got aired on on here!!!!
Stephen, hate to see you go Man, but you have to do what you think is best. As I said on the other thread, your craftsmanship and instruments speak for you, and I mean that in a great way.
Perhaps I should be the one to go, after all I started the thread. Ricardo has pointed me out here and seems to think that I have put all of you makers against one another. Not sure how I did that, or how me asking about general construction makes it my fault that people get ticked off at each other. I guess when I made the statement of I didn't know who was going to build me a blanca. Well that don't mean that I want luthiers bidding on a build, it just means that I hadn't decided which maker on my list I was going to go with. Perhaps it was also wrong of me to say that I didn't know who I was going to order from. I'll make a deal with you all now though. Which ever of you luthiers that Ricardo orders his next guitar from, I want a sister guitar made for me and my guitar can be made just after or before his.
I love the foro and am thankful to have it as such a worthwhile resource, but its not my life. I'll be happy to step aside if it will make the experience better for others.
Most of us get out of hand every once and a while, and it always ends in someone talking about leaving the foro. The sad thing is that those actions make others leave who had no involvement in the outbursts. They look at us who are in the middle of mud slinging and decide that they just don't have time to read through such a diatribe, and they are gone.
The luthier I chose to go with didn't get involved when the thread went off topic. That says a lot about him in my opinion. He stuck to the topic and when the topic went out the window so did he. He's a better and more mature person than me or lots of other members. And though Ricardo wishes it, I'm sure he won't build me "a crap guitar". That's just not how he operates. Its not the way any smart builder would operate...
Say the word and I'm gone.
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Date Jun. 20 2012 18:36:56
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: taking time away (in reply to estebanana)
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Anders, I like the way you think. I have noticed in other cultures that people can argue and have heated discussions, and then just forget about it. Lots of us Americans tend to get our feelings hurt, or hold grudges to long. Lots of people see America as a promise land, but the culture is getting more complicated to live in every day.
Stephen, Stephen,... Stephen,
I also will be totally clear. Your work is great, your advice is great, and the contributions you make to the foro are also great. Some how I remember stating this more than once during my time on here...
I wasn't lecturing against or pointing the finger at you. I have included myself in the number of people who can get out of hand at times. I didn't include you or anyone else specifically. If you felt that in some way my post above was making an example out of you, I beg your forgiveness, because that was never my intention.
I for one just hate to see you go because you and another luthier disagree on the point of bridge placement, or because communications between us weren't the best that they could be. Your contributions have enriched myself and all members here and I wish you would stay around. Your an out of the box thinker, and we don't find those people everyday.
You can fire me as a customer all you want, I'm cool with that. I had told someone over 2 weeks ago that we were hung up in lack of communication and I didn't know how it all was going to end. I committed to placing an order for a blanca on Monday with someone, so your public firing of me is a little late. We'll operate under the assumption that you fired me as a customer a few weeks ago and because of moving your shop and finishing guitars, you just hadn't had the time to inform me yet. That seems like a possibility, and I'll buy that if that's what your saying. After all I'm sure not the only guitar player in the world...
You have a waiting list full of players, and most of them will be more helpful with spreading the word about your guitars than I could be. I'm sure Jason McGuire will love the new one your building him, and his playing it on gigs will also help grow your list. I'm not the player he is, and I never will be, so you'll always be better off with someone with his talents playing your guitars. So in short, no, you don't need my business. That is clear and I except it completely. Every gig I ever have played I worked just as hard if there were 10 listeners as I ever did for 10000 listeners. However I am willing to except just how many more skilled players are out there, and how their business is just flat out more important than mine. That's just a fact in life. So As I have already said more than once, I have no hard feelings with you at all.
I hope that you'll except this as a public and sincere apology for what ever it was that I unknowingly did to you. If you want to air any other grievances, you can feel free to contact me, or keep it here on the foro if that's what you wish.
*All remarks in this post are sincere and accurate to the best of my knowledge. The opinions expressed herein may not be shared/ or aren't necessarily a reflection of Foro Flamenco or its members. Many of the author's opinions on this subject are not demonstrated in this post.*
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Date Jun. 20 2012 22:12:33
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