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RE: Questions about woods.
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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 RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Well, I never wanted to start a war or even a heated discussion with my questions. I sure never wanted it to lead to someone getting pissed off at the foro...
These were just a few things that I had been wondering about for a while and I thought I would ask... It also was never my intention to go to any luthier and demand 1 body size, style of bracing and so on. I pick a luthier based on how his/ her instruments sound, their prices and reputation and that's about it. I had always just wondered especially about different body sizes, because I do find it more comfortable to play on slightly larger body guitars. Smaller body guitars are like guitars with a 660 scale for me, they may not be the most comfortable, but I have no problems playing them.
I do want to thank Andy, Anders and Stephen for sharing their time and thoughts, along with everyone else. I have found the responses to be informative and appreciate everyone's time for the thoughts and opinions.
Looking back I kind of wished that I had just asked what the different body sizes were that most people are making. Maybe that would have been a better and less heated subject. LOL
Part of the reason for my question was that my 650 blanca has a more drastic slope from each bout, and my 660 negra is less drastic. Because both guitars were made by the same maker I didn't know if he had changed the body shape over the years, or if he built according to scale length. I know this would have been an easy question to ask him, but I wanted to get other peoples take on it all.
So before I fire up Google, can someone recommend a resource where I can learn about the different body sizes used by such makers as Reyes, Conde and so on? I don't just like to play the guitar, I like to be educated on how the instrument is built. That's why I hang here so much. To be honest the construction of instruments has always been more entreating to me than the performance, not that I don't love to perform...
To lots of players an instrument is kind of like a car. They have the attitude of they want this and they want that. Sort of like telling an artist exactly how they want him to paint. For me an instrument is a lot closer to my heart than a car. Of course I want to have some say on the scale length and nut width, but that's just about it for me. If I don't feel that some certain builder's sound is what I hear for myself, then I won't get a guitar from him. I will go with a builder who has the sound I like and lots of you guys are in that category for me.
Its just like some flamencos like a "lyrical" guitar. They will want a blanca with negra quality's. Not me... When I want a lyrical sound I pick up my negra, when I want dry, raspy and balls I pick up my blanca. And over all I'm a blanca man by at least 80 percent. That don't mean that I don't appreciate a lyrical blanca, it just means that I won't buy one...
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Date Jun. 17 2012 4:17:59
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Without being mean, I have to say I've become frustrated at times by those who begin making guitars and then come up with all these minor points in construction and use them as sales points.
oh - oh.... Are you sure this will be received well??  (thanks for being honest)
I´ll continue my public suicide:
Well, to me, the more a luthier or salesmann needs to use minor points in order to sell guitars, the more they show that they dont know very much.
But at the same time they are the wise ones, because the clients and the beginning builders want to think that all these minor points are soooooo important. Just read through the last year or two on this luthier section and you´ll find tons of examples. I´ve read most of it and since it continues, every day I´m a little bit closer to leaving the foro for good (but I´ll start with my yearly break)
Another good example is myself as a builder and a salesman. Quite some years ago, I also focussed more on minor points in public and my sales were doing pretty well. (people like that sh*t)
Now, I´m not so much into that and I´m tired of reading luthier nonsense about 1/10 of milimeters etc. and my sales are doing a LOT worse.
But I try to keep my head cool. I have other more important things to do and I relax because I know that the guitars I´ve built the last 2 years are a lot better than those I made 5+ years ago. They should be so, because in the end what matters the most is learning from your own experience and not from someone elses experience. Thats what estebananas guitar mentor is trying to say. I remember the times I talked with the great Rolf Eichinger. He was the same way. One question of mine made him ask me 2.... They were always very simple questions from me (simple questions dont exist dork...) and his were always complicated ones leading to a simple answer... So what happened was that I found out that 1 question was more than enough for me to handle at a time and we ended up talking about other things whitch were more important. Like Earl Scrugs, living alone in small spanish villages etc. Very interesting. BTW, a petty that Rolf didnt make flamencos. He had an enourmous capacity to control every little detail and I´m sure he would have made some amazing flamenco guitars.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jun. 17 2012 6:52:04
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Good God!
point 1:
I would be happier if each luthier on the foro would post a video of each guitar he built. For me there can't be enough of that.
point 2:
Andy, I get what your saying about Castillo, but I'm not sure that he's responsible for having an add on the foro. I could be wrong, but I thought his American importer did that.
point 3:
Andy or any other builder can charge what ever they want to for a guitar. You place a value on what your work and materials are worth and you sell guitars. In my book that's not "under cutting". Under cutting is when a luthier says something like, "I know your thinking of getting a guitar from so and so, but I can build you one cheaper and better than he can." As far as I know Andy has never done that. I'm sure Andy would be happy to get 100 times more money for each guitar, but he's smart enough to know that he can't price instruments at $5000 at this stage in his career.
There are quite a few good builders in business who are building guitars in the same price range as Andy. Some of these builders are here in the states and have built 100s of guitars. The fact is that there are still lots of builders building guitars which are great concert instruments for a low price. Andy is just one of them... We all know what a good experienced builder Anders is, and he's still offering guitars for under $4000 Yankee Dollars. Its hard for some Americans to compete with either price, because of the location which they live and work. Overhead is a lot lower for a luthier in a place like Ohio than it is for a luthier in NYC. So the fellow in NYC has to get more per instrument, or worry about homelessness...
@ Andy, I know you are building good instruments, I can hear that. Just keep doing what your doing Man. Not one builder ever has or ever will know it all. I can't speak for some of what was said here, because I must have missed those threads, but I have always appreciated your talent and input. For what ever that may be worth... I'm not a builder, so its not worth as much as great feedback from other luthiers, but I am a player, and that counts for something I guess...
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Date Jun. 18 2012 20:11:32
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HeavyWood
Posts: 37
Joined: Apr. 19 2010
From: San Antonio, TX
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RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Mr. Eden,
By my comprehension of your post above, you inferred
that Andy was insulting other luthiers ability to interface
with potential customers. I think you owe him an apology
for voicing your misapprehension of his post.
With Anders, I think there is just a language and inflection difference,
and thus, you thought deteresa1 was acting superior.
As an English speaker, I never got that feeling from his post.
I saw deteresa1's response as just a quick, to the point comment of his
personal experience, and in no way demeaning of anyone else...
I have spoken to all of the luthiers on this foro by phone except for
SEden and Anders. I can say, Andy was very helpful and patient
with all of my questions.
As for estebanana's post, I detect jealously and maybe even some
contempt due to his bringing up prices and talk of 'undercutting'.
Come down off of your high horse about 'attitudes and ambition
in America'. Sorry your market share is down.
I had a good conversation with Stephen Faulk by phone also, and
wanted to commission one of his guitars... until reading one of his foro
posts a few days after our talk...
I am not about to go looking for his post now, but estebanana was
complaining about all of the cheap guitar players contacting him, and
how, from now on, he was just going to build what he wants, for the
price he wants. ($4600.00 since we are talking prices)...
His post soured me because when I spoke to him, he said he liked to work
with potential customers. Then, a few days later, I'm cheap and he is tired
of dealing with me? Granted, he never named me personally, but how
else am I supposed to feel?
Oh, all luthiers should post new guitar vids of their creations! The more the better for all of us.
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Date Jun. 18 2012 22:28:23
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3005
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
Never mind that Andy did not stick his neck out until after the old heads had spoken when it was safe to express an opinion.
Yeah sorry I'm not logged in to this forum 24 hours a day, sometimes it takes me a while to get to a thread.
Honestly, for me this never had ANYTHING to do with trying to get Shawn to order a guitar from me, although I'd be more than happy to make him one. I raised my prices a little bit recently because I really only like having 4-5 guitars in the queue at a time, and honestly I would love to see Shawn order a guitar from Stephen to help with his new shop, or Anders because I believe he's a good human being doing exceptional and honest work.
With any builder, you get a certain type of guitar. We are all clearly different enough in our styles that we will attract different kinds of people and players.
Stephen seems to be hung up on the fact that I'm a young guy (I'm 25), but I've been dedicated to the guitar since I was 16 and I'm a quick learner when I really dig into something. I didn't just a pull a Reyes plan out of my ass and slap some guitars together with a glue gun. I had a really good teacher who I've been with for almost 3 years and I've had the opportunity to talk to a number of very good luthiers. You could say that these first 25 guitars have been something of a (not always well) paid apprenticeship for me but I found my legs rather quickly and am setting up my own shop at the end of this month.
Anyway that's my story if anyone was confused and I'm not ashamed to put it out there.
Now, back to the important stuff in life 
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date Jun. 18 2012 23:55:58
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Questions about woods. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Stephen,
Don't know what your problem is with me, or what I ever did to you, or what your post had to do with anything. I don't have the slightest idea of who HeavyWood is, but from your post above it seems that you may have thought he was me or that we were in cahoots together? If so I can tell you that your wrong.
I'm also a little perplexed that you are operating under the assumption that I have commissioned a guitar from Andy. Here's the story with me and Andy, if you really want to know. I have spoken to him once in my life. That was when I was in the process of getting a negra built 6 months ago. I found him to be kind and easy to deal with. I also think he's on the right track with his guitars. As I said before, my opinion isn't worth as much as yours because I'm not a luthier. However, I am a player and players are what pay a luthiers bills, so maybe my opinion is more important than I have given it credit. I'm sure that Andy can vouch for my statement.
I was also about to defend you to HeavyWood, and report what a great conversation I had with you when we talked the one time, and of the great amount of pride and care you show for giving a player what he wants. In other words, I felt that our one conversation was a positive demonstration of your personality and skills. Apparently HeavyWood had a different experience than I did, that is until you pitched a baby fit over here, which I still don't understand. (huge shake of the head here) Maybe your already sorry for your post, and undoubted you may even be shamed into deleting it.
I can tell you one thing now sir, you never have to worry about getting my business. If you have a riff with Andy that's between the two of you and not me. For my part in this thread I just wanted Andy to know I appreciated his time and ideas just as much as everyone else's. And that's all.
I tried to talk with you for a month about having a blanca built, and the last words you said to me were, "Let me chew on this for a few days and get back with you." I never heard anything back until the day you posted on the foro looking for donations and/ or to try to get people to step up and place orders so you could get into your new shop. Once again I tried to keep the ball rolling, but never heard anything back from you. I know your busy, and that you are building for more important players than me, (and no, I'm not being sarcastic with that remark.) You have to understand that I won't chase a guy down to order a guitar from him though.
So in short I'm sorry that any relationship we had ended this way. All because I asked for the foro luthiers opinions on woods and bodies, and tried to let Andy know that I appreciated his input and valued his instruments, you found that to be a reason to go off the deep end. Still I think your a great guy and builder, even if you do jump to conclusions and I thank you for your time and input. Though your a great guitar maker, your not the detective that Jo Friday was. :)
So yes, go back to talking about what ever you want, all of this talking and not returning phone calls lost you a sale here.
Btw, Because I do respect your skills I'm glad to hear that you have had positive experiences with Castillo guitars. In addition to building me 2 great instruments, (so great that I sold a 60s Ramirez), he returns emails and phone calls when he has a customer who wants to order a guitar. His skills and customer service were enough to get my business and keep it for a 2nd guitar.
Good luck to you and no hard feelings here...
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Date Jun. 19 2012 1:44:05
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