Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Contact Admin | Log Out



This site is dedicated to the memory of Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 15,000 unique visitors a month from 120 countries and 2.8 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

Is this wrong?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2474
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

Is this wrong? 
There is a guitar built from the Blackshear Reyes plans on ebay by an un-named luthier. The Reyes label is even copied. Is this wrong? I have a problem with this but maybe it's just me.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Manuel-Reyes-Flamenco-Guitar-/160816210212?pt=Guitar&hash=item257164a124#ht_560wt_936

_____________________________

Not only is my short-term memory horrible, but so is my short-term memory.

Tom Núñez
La Falseta Classical & Flamenco Guitars
www.lafalseta.com
www.facebook.com/t.a.nunez1
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 4 2012 23:40:05
 
gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Weird things!

_____________________________

Spyros
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 4 2012 23:52:34
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Copied Reyes label?

Isn't that counterfeiting regardless of whether or not an educated buyer would know that it's not a real Reyes?

Un-named luthier?

Maybe I'd offer a little more than what I bought for my Yamaha.




EDIT:
Oh! It comes with a case!

I'd offer the price of my Yamaha plus $40.


_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 0:04:51
 
El Kiko

Posts: 1243
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: Now living near Cork

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Copying a guitar , I have no problem with , I wish I had the skills myself to do that .
However the problem I see is the copied label as this is the mark of the luthier.
and really is one of the things that blatantly says this guitar was made by XYZ luthier , even though it is stated it is not the case I still see a big problem.
I think it should be easy to solve , there are many luthiers here we just ask them "how do you feel about someone copying your design ANd putting a copy of your signature inside on the label.?"
That should get some interesting replies....

_____________________________

The shortest distance between two points is now under construction.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 0:21:42
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 269
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Wrong both for copying the label and for the concept that building exactly to the dimensions gives you the same sound quality.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 0:36:56
 
Mark2

Posts: 970
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
It's like a fake Les Paul with a Gibson label. Sooner or later, someone is likely to pass it off as the real thing. If it's really good guitar, the maker should have his own label on it and let it find it's value in the market place. If it's just so someone can hang it in a glass case and pretend it's authentic, cool. The problem is when someone represents it as the real deal.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 0:42:21
 
keith

Posts: 560
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Taxachusetts USA

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
it appears there is a signature on the label of reyes and that, in my book, makes it a bogus/fraud since reyes apparently did not make the guitar. the seller says "an experienced guitar maker and member of the Guild of American Luthiers. Much like Blackshear, this particular guitar is number 3 in a series of 4 built." so now this bogus reyes is invoking a member of GAL and blackshear. and maple?
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 0:43:48
 
Sean

Posts: 623
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
 

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
WTF he forgot to add exactly as Vicente Amigo plays. If only the GAL was a real Guild so we could watch him being stoned to death. This is so wrong in so many ways and the sad thing is the person is completely clueless of the fact.

_____________________________
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 1:14:55
 
shaun

Posts: 138
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Alberta, Canada

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
They forged the signature too? They should sell it to Chumlee on Pawn Stars.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 1:23:34
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2474
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
I noticed the signature too but can't read it. Is it the builders or a forgery of Reyes? If it's a forgery of Reyes that is a no no for obvious reasons. I have no problem with building a replica. I myself have done so. However, I will put MY name on the label and not the maestros. I also don't like using a makers headstock design IF, the maker is still alive. This is just MY opinion. Alive = copying. Dead = tribute. Unless the maker is alive and your building a replica as a tribute BUT, put YOUR name on the label. Just my measly two cents.

_____________________________

Not only is my short-term memory horrible, but so is my short-term memory.

Tom Núñez
La Falseta Classical & Flamenco Guitars
www.lafalseta.com
www.facebook.com/t.a.nunez1
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 2:16:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 3425
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
This is fraud. Even if you disclose it is a bench copy it's unethical to use a label from another authentic existing guitar.

Looks like a Xerox or scanned and printed copy of a label from an existing guitar. It even shows Reyes' stamps!

I bet Reyes would be really pissed off about this. Someone who writes good Spanish should email his son and tell him. That should be yanked off eBay.

_____________________________

Stephen Faulk Guitars
Stephen Faulk Luthier on Youtube
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 3:19:04
 
keith

Posts: 560
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Taxachusetts USA

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
i copied and blew up the label and then went to g.s.i. to look at a legit label. the bogus label has a signature very close to the legit label--enough so that one would easily come to the conclusion it is a fake. it probably is an exact copy but given the quality of the photo it is difficult to truly ascertain. the label in of itself is copied. i notified the folks at the bay of the issue.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 10:54:21
 
El Kiko

Posts: 1243
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: Now living near Cork

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
as I said before the big problem is the label and signature and stamp etc ....one can buy designs of many guitars , even online like Ignatio Fleta , jose Romanillos , etc.. and then a good luthier could make a nice guitar from them with high quality materials ...
So the Guitar itself is not the problem ., in fact reading about it I think it is probably a very good guitar , and will sound as well flamenco ..

So if I were the luthier that made it I would actually want my name inside it to say ''Look how good my work is..I can copy a masters guitar and make it everybit as good ' '
so my own designs would carry some weight and credibility .. .. surely.....

So the reason for forging a label , is very suspect , going to all that effort and having the guitar with no maker ,... it just smells bad ......
Its a type of art fraud , even though it is declared ... I can paint a picture , in a certain style , but only if I sign it Leonardo da Vinci , at that point I have crossed the line ....
We also know that all this was in the head of the luthier when building , is it right or wrong ?/
Further more it also begs the question are there other luthiers out there who have made guitars in the style of a maker and with a label and sent it through the market as the real deal...
I for one would not know , assuming it was high quality ....
there are a lot of other things to be considered as well once you start thinking of its implications .........

_____________________________

The shortest distance between two points is now under construction.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 13:52:04
 
Prominent Critic

 

Posts: 882
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 19:50:16
 
estebanana

Posts: 3425
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to Prominent Critic) 
quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.


ha ha ha ha

_____________________________

Stephen Faulk Guitars
Stephen Faulk Luthier on Youtube
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 19:54:01
 
bursche

Posts: 1139
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Hamburg, Germany

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to estebanana) 
stolen reyes. the story is made up to cover the theft. buy it now!!!

_____________________________

Flamenco guitar courses in Hamburg, Germany: http://flamenco-workshop.jimdo.com/
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 22:03:11
 
keith

Posts: 560
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Taxachusetts USA

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to Prominent Critic) 
ramon--if the seller apprenticed under jim sherry he did not quite pick up the finer points of the trade as in: make up a bogus name such as manuelino reyes or slap on a sticker denoting the guitar as a 2a or, better yet, a vincente amigo model. for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.

i just noticed a d***m has made his third offer and it is now pending. i hope this guy knows what he is getting into.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 22:15:47
 
El Kiko

Posts: 1243
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: Now living near Cork

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

stolen reyes. the story is made up to cover the theft.

Ha.... another interesting idea.............

_____________________________

The shortest distance between two points is now under construction.
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 5 2012 22:33:39
 
Prominent Critic

 

Posts: 882
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.


He should be flogged with a composite G string - while it's still on a guitar!

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 0:26:19
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2474
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to Prominent Critic) 
quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.


Well that explains a lot then.

_____________________________

Not only is my short-term memory horrible, but so is my short-term memory.

Tom Núñez
La Falseta Classical & Flamenco Guitars
www.lafalseta.com
www.facebook.com/t.a.nunez1
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 0:30:17
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: TANúñez
quote:

The seller apprenticed under Sherry Brener in the seventies.

Well that explains a lot then.

He learned the art of fraud decades ago.


_____________________________

Upgraded Yamaha CG171SF
The Guitar Student Journal
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 1:18:15
 
shaun

Posts: 138
Joined: May 11 2012
From: Alberta, Canada

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to Prominent Critic) 
quote:

quote:

for this, the seller should be flogged with a composite 'g' string.



He should be flogged with a composite G string - while it's still on a guitar!


He should be flogged with a composite G string while it's still on THAT guitar!
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 1:22:39
 
Sean

Posts: 623
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
 

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Wow a digital caliper, it must be good
I wonder if it has the same un Flamenco setup as the guitar depicted in said plan, you know the 50gram bridge design, patio stone thick fretboard and a string height off the soundboard you could drop a midget through.

If you sell fake Gucci handbags it's still a crime even if you tell your customers its a knockoff

_____________________________
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 4:25:53
 
SEden

 

Posts: 390
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Is this wrong? (in reply to TANúñez) 
Gucci will have copy rights to the design which makes it illegal to copy and sell on.

I don't think you can file for copy right protection on a spanish guitar of this kind.

It's still fraudulant to stick his label in with his signature on. A few years down the line if the story of the maker is not sold in with it, the guitar could fetch a pretty penny wouldn't you think?

_____________________________

Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  Report Abuse |  Date Jun. 6 2012 17:35:06
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

7.788086E-02 secs.