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RE: Black Hole eats sun
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Piwin)
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All that is about manned spaceflight and more so about missions to / station on Mars serves only one actual thing.
As indicator for inconsistency of intelligence.
Within an individual for one, and within civilization on the other hand. Both capable within certain discrete realms for to then fail in much less demanding other respect.
And what ought to be special to the absurdly irrational culture that we have got lost to (see sawing off branch one is sitting on) is how we can handle things like theory of astronomical physics, quantum physics, etc. to then still be so brain-dead to even just think of hopelessly settling on Mars while keeping on needlessly destroying a perfect habitat on earth.
Space travel under conventional physical means is not really a matter of consistent science and technology but definitely one of all the aspects we are stranding with. Good sense, constructivism, sustainability, objectivity, reason and not at last social sense.
NASA, ESA and what have you should invest their capacities into very down to earth yet urgent matters.
For, if there be a future in more than ~20-30 years still, these orgs as they are today will stand for nothing else than silly jokes about a completely insane and grotesquely wasted past.
- Anyone remember "Radio Eriwan" jokes? Quite to that extent.
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Date Apr. 7 2019 11:15:25
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
And what ought to be special to the absurdly irrational culture that we have got lost to (see sawing off branch one is sitting on) is how we can handle things like theory of astronomical physics, quantum physics, etc. to then still be so brain-dead to even just think of hopelessly settling on Mars while keeping on needlessly destroying a perfect habitat on earth.
[..]
NASA, ESA and what have you should invest their capacities into very down to earth yet urgent matters.
For, if there be a future in more than ~20-30 years still, these orgs as they are today will stand for nothing else than silly jokes about a completely insane and grotesquely wasted past.
You don't know what you are talking about, and as a result conflate science, research and the places where these happen, including governmental entities like NASA, with political will of elected representatives.
Global warming can be mitigated with the science, research, and even technologies we have today, so don't blame science and researchers and NASA and the like. Blame the politicians.
_____________________________
Konstantin
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Date Apr. 7 2019 15:54:29
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
You don't know what you are talking about, and as a result conflate science, research and the places where these happen, including governmental entities like NASA, with political will of elected representatives.
Global warming can be mitigated with the science, research, and even technologies we have today, so don't blame science and researchers and NASA and the like. Blame the politicians.
Have I expressed dislike of science anywhere?
Maybe I was 'not knowing what I´m talking about' if not aware about the fact that NASA staff simply follows targets as long as allowed to benefit of generous salaries, job security, prestige and social privileges.
But while you apparently think to know, such occurrence accounts for secondary circumstances, while I was dealing with effects, or lack thereof for that matter.
Would you subscribe for Mars?
Guess they could do there with folks who know what they´re talking about.
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Date Apr. 7 2019 16:15:02
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
You don't know what you are talking about, and as a result conflate science, research and the places where these happen, including governmental entities like NASA, with political will of elected representatives.
Global warming can be mitigated with the science, research, and even technologies we have today, so don't blame science and researchers and NASA and the like. Blame the politicians.
Have I expressed dislike of science anywhere?
Forgot about this one.
I don't know - did I say anywhere that you dislike science? No? OK, next question - do I like puffins? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, here's what you HAVE expressed:
"NASA, ESA and what have you should invest their capacities into very down to earth yet urgent matters."
"NASA staff simply follows targets as long as allowed to benefit of generous salaries, job security, prestige and social privileges. "
" ..the very people actually doing something about it" way too late and hesitant at that, even though it would had taken merely a fraction of their past, wasted enormous budgets."
This tells me that you ALSO (a separate point from the previous one I made about you conflating scientific research and where it is done with political will when you say things like the quotes above and others) do not understand the link between research and practical benefits from it. When you look for a direct "down to earth" linkage and results you express the same thinking as that of chasing next quarter gains in value of a private publicly traded company. Applying this narrow and short-term thinking to basic/blue-sky scientific research would be detrimental - to all.
Here is a good distillation of fundamental points:
1. Basic science is the foundation of all applied science. Because we cannot predict which basic science projects will turn into an application, we must cast a wide net.
2. The connection between basic and applied science is seldom a straight line; more often, it involves a network that connects novel ideas, methods and data in a new way, leading to innovations.
3. The government must fund basic science because its potential economic gains are unpredictable and generally long term. No private investing company can invest under those conditions.
Is this above just "theory" without proof in practice? - not at all. It has worked extremely well, far beyond anyone could have expected. In fact, evidence of the benefits from that seemingly chaotic process is too overwhelming to list in full, but I'll give some examples and leave the rest as an exercise to the reader:
NASA (speaking of) has a nice list of technologies that made it into everyday life at https://spinoff.nasa.gov/Spinoff2008/tech_benefits.html.
There are a lot of papers estimating return of investment (which in itself is a very constricted lens), and they show that more than half and up to 80-90% of first-world GDPs today are due to basic science research from a generation ago. The average ROI on R&D investment, dollar per dollar, has been calculated to be as large as 20% PER YEAR, well beyond the best sustained performance by private companies indices.
There are also fun lists of military (i.e. GOVERNMENT) research which made it into everyday life, and the scope is overwhelming. See well-presented lists at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_inventions or https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/143526-27-military-technologies-that-changed-civilian-life, for example.
_____________________________
Konstantin
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Date Apr. 7 2019 16:55:38
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to kitarist)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
quote:
ORIGINAL: kitarist
You don't know what you are talking about, and as a result conflate science, research and the places where these happen, including governmental entities like NASA, with political will of elected representatives.
Global warming can be mitigated with the science, research, and even technologies we have today, so don't blame science and researchers and NASA and the like. Blame the politicians.
Have I expressed dislike of science anywhere?
Forgot about this one.
I don't know did I say anywhere that you dislike science? No? OK, next question - do I like puffins? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
However, here's what you HAVE expressed:
"NASA, ESA and what have you should invest their capacities into very down to earth yet urgent matters."
"NASA staff simply follows targets as long as allowed to benefit of generous salaries, job security, prestige and social privileges. "
" ..the very people actually doing something about it" way too late and hesitant at that, even though it would had taken merely a fraction of their past, wasted enormous budgets."
This tells me that you ALSO (a separate point from the previous one I made about you conflating scientific research and where it is done with political will when you say things like the quotes above and others) do not understand the link between research and practical benefits from it. When you look for a direct "down to earth" linkage and results you express the same thinking as that of chasing next quarter gains in value of a private publicly traded company.
[to be continued]
While you may work on the rest of the outbreak:
You present the typical graduate who made academic teaching staff desperate.
Incapable of systemic thinking and drilled to be blind.
In German called "Fachidiot" in English probably "blinkered" or "one-track specialist".
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Date Apr. 7 2019 17:06:15
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Piwin)
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I was about the inherent absurdity of pursued space travel.
Further, next to the cynicism of mega budgets for uselessness before contextual, sensible and social discrepancy on earth.
Instead of congruently specifying what the use of attempted space travel could be (like constructive and realistic goal, and how travelling personnel was to even just survive on any astronomically considerable distance and time frame) you guys went to defending NASA. An organization founded for triviality of demonstrating superiority in politically motivated rivalry, and actually wasting giant funds for not much more of justification than that, until today.
Do I not understand that R&D needs funds / shouldn´t not be defined by bean counting?
Not really.
In fact, I would be all for states funded science and research on behalf of reason, humanity, habitat and future.
And it is rather predictable what a difference such investment would had meant to human progress if only just the inefficiency budget of 60 years affluent NASA would had gone into it (useful side products with geo-X, satellite tech, weather forecasting, archaeological / biological scanning, civil GPS etc. included). Not to think of similarly inefficiently wasted funds like yearly 40+ billion USD of just internet survey, then secret services and trillions for war machinery.
Given away constructive effects that apparently supersede average imagination.
Your link to NASA´s self emitted laurel wouldn´t open for me.
The other one to alleged civil benefits from military tech worked.
However, you should know that org´s own praise and claims might not equal most reliable and objective source to stick to.
Sometime in the nineties the SPIEGEL went after the popular spread benefits allegedly derived from modern military research. And documented how to the contrary, vast of these were taken from civil output and kept from / delayed from being spread on civil market.
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Already as a child, I couldn´t understand contemporaries who would be fascinated by military technology.
It makes for a geeky version of stupidity and firm isolation of circumstances.
- Besides, vast of my generation would had not foreseen that there could be coming up trends with people deeming it stylish to wear camouflage, jump boots and shave heads voluntarily.
To us all paradox and ugly symbols of giving up on self determination and autonomous thinking.
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Date Apr. 8 2019 12:09:03
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
Arash
Holy **** dude chill out, I'm not fascinated by millitary technology or millitary pants and boots.
Rather than meaning you with military fashion followers, I meant to point out how passion for thelike has always been beyond me.
quote:
Arash
After experiencing years of war as a child invaded by US millitary backed puppet regimes and losing relatives in it, do you really think I am the right person to say these things to ?
Am I supposed to know that?
Versed with German language you might however take from yesterday´s quote of mine in private correspondence that atrocities are all but ignored by me.
quote:
Nicht zu vergleichen mit von Westmächten gestützten Diktaturen, in denen zumeist über 80% der Menschen darauf brennen, ihre Tyrannen loszuwerden. Dort reichten schon ein paar verhaltene Signale aus westlicher Staatsräson, daß man die Despoten nicht mehr akzeptierte, und schon stürmten Millionen Geknechtete (, von denen so Viele Opfer und Tote in ihren Familien zu beklagen haben) auf die Straße.
Also sobald auch nur damit zu rechnen wäre, daß sie nicht mit automatischen Waffen niedergemäht und Überlebenden in Folterkellern das Licht ausgehaucht würde. (Während dazu in westlichen Institutionen und Medien Stillschweigen gewahrt wäre, wie gehabt.)
BTW, if you think me telling stories, with the fact that some millions of URLs won´t open for me: If my reply looks as if there had actually been access: That stems from general knowledge.
- Accompanied by a certain measure of reason, which renders the option of lying a generally cumbersome and primitive one. (Certainly, no one could claim to never have lied. But it can sure be engaged into keeping such at a rare minimum -for instance when truth could be needlessly / destructively hurting-, and not for light cheapness of ordinarily faking arguments / supporting strategies of any kind.) It is called self-respect.
quote:
Arash
... there is a lot of interesting and "down to earth"useful stuff in there without evil intentions, and which you can also find in sources outside NASA's own website.
See my pointers at "effect" and efficiency. Such of the NASA is dismal.
quote:
Arash
It is the reason why they moved out of their caves and went to other places on earth.
You should tell that to anthropologists, who are still not certain why humans were moving, as much of movement bears no indices of actual necessity.
quote:
Arash
And it is the reason why now they are looking up the sky and want to look more and deeper and deeper and why this drive will never stop.
Sounds like sorts of romanticism.
Supposedly of the kind that makes some sign in for settling on Mars.
And here is me, the drily party pooper who predicts that they all without exception will be severally regretting such a one-way trip. (Even if there hypothetically come up ways to return.)
More unfortunate than that, though, being social and cognitive degradation of the organizers and of their audience´s state of distraction and discrete perception, who do not understand what it means to throw funds and potential out the window that could be used to halt the most urgent of fatalities on earth.
PS:
Sorry for not having considered the smileys!
Prepared the reply from notification e-mail. (Which includes no icons.)
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Date Apr. 8 2019 16:28:26
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Black Hole eats sun (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Arash
... you can't open the links, yet you automatically assume just by looking at the URL, that there is just some BS which NASA wrote, so it can't be trusted unless confirmed by 3rd party sites 
I am sorry. Did not know that they actually published something to the extent of:
"We have used six decades, 60 000 of luxuriously paid, catered, secured and pensioned staff who could have engaged themselves in constructive undertakings plus care for their families and at the very least 1.4 trillion of bucks from state´s budget to develop some devices and sewing boxes of which most have been demonstrably and crucially needed, as well as sending fellows to the moon, which altogether turned the world into a way better one than before, making invested efforts entirely justified, whilst earthly matters throughout have been dandy and in considerate check."
Can´t help it, doubts keep lingering, though. 
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Date Apr. 8 2019 17:32:58
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