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RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
They could have got a good Taxidermist and with today's robotic prosthetics he could have appeared all over the world for years yet, with some great backing tracks and firework shows at the end...
Good instincts there Ron, cause guess what?? Thats already happening.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
There are flamencos everywhere(not just in the US) of different ages that like different kinds of flamenco. No one is obligated to enjoy Paco's latest experiment more than his older stuff. Many people don't even like his early solo stuff because it was too modern. It doesn't make them bad afficianados and it doesn't mean they don't understand the key of F#
I was never talking about "enjoyment". I never said "I enjoy electric bass and harmonica....mm mm yummy good flamenco...". I am just really tired of the lack of understanding that flamenco has changed, the forms have a evolved, and other instruments have nothing to do with it AT ALL. Casual listeners and general audience I have no problem with. "Flamencos everywhere" and "aficionados" of flamenco go to a paco concert are seriously surprised by what they see? Sorry, you dont' have to "like" it but "bad aficionados" is an appropriate term. Most cases sorry, also they don't understand what the keys mean in flamenco either.
Paco throws tons of bones by the way, it's a matter if you are paying attention or even care. One or two new falsetas and some people are lost and bored. Electric bass comes in and folks are so turned off they don't notice Almoraima fasletas. Entre dos aguas comes on (eye roll) everyone screams.
Nothing at all wrong with prefering to hear Cepa andaluza....but vast majority don't even understand how the C# stuff WAS FLAMENCO....much less a buleria. They just know it don't sound like any flamenco THEY know.
quote:
You didn't named Montse Cortes on purpose?
sorry stick her in too. I was mainly doing camaron wannabes...Potito was already on the list but sure, Potito wannabes need love too.
quote:
Personally, I’m glad that someone‘s keeping the old style alive — as are others, for instance Luis El Zambo & Diego Amaya.
Paco Peña I understand as far as old school staying alive....this Diego looks like Tomatito yet plays Moraito toque (since 90's I mean) with that wimpy soft dynamic sparcity of V. Amigo with Merce Pele etc....hardly old school accomp. Zambo sounds old school but the guitar is way too spacey for him here I think. Just look at is face as he waits for the compas to cycle, then cuts off his fasleta remates and stuff. He would never do that with Moraito playing, or someone with more ballsy drive to accompaniment.
quote:
But overall, especially the thumb work, which is a majority of the night, sounded weak and muffled compared to what i expected. I could follow the falsettas i knew pretty well, but much of the night, i couldnt really hear what he was doing. I dont think it was a sound system issue. I could hear him when he dug into a part.
For me the dynamics were as expected from how I know the music. I mean live it is always much wider then TV and CD. But actually the loud parts were SUPER blasting in the 2nd row...the thumb work at end of buleria and some powerful rasgueado were almost distortion. I could hear every note and every mistake when it was meant to be soft. MIght have been your position. From where I was I could not hear cajon amplified...only the live stage sound was coming to me. It was balanced overall but noticeable. Then in his cajon solo it was coming through and really blasting. I think it was the sound guy, but I was only in one spot all night. I saw duquende talking with sound guy in the middle...there were issues on stage for them.
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
Bill, I for one completely get what you are saying, and I won't be attending a Paco show until next week!
Its easy to see that Paco would just get out and out sick of playing the same stuff, but a lot of the people will expect it... I for one love Paco and will never deny what he has done for flamenco. Having said that, I must admit that I enjoy his older stuff the most. This isn't to put down any of his later artistic creations at all, I just haven't arrived at the level of musicianship or listenership to truly appreciate lots of the new ideas he has had.
Each genre of music has to change and grow or it will be lost. That's just the simple truth about things. Flamenco wouldn't or couldn't grow if an artist was doing the same set he would have played in 1968... That don't mean that I wouldn't love to hear the 68 set today, but lots of long time listeners would say, "he's playing the same s**t he played over 40 years ago!" For me, I can understand the music Paco was playing then better than his later stuff, and that's probably why I like it better. Its not him, its me and my own shortfalls...
I admire him for the use of the bass and harmonica, but that's not my taste and not what I want to hear. I would probably be more hyped up about the show if it was just a Paco trio or even solo Paco! That's what I want to hear is Paco, not a harmonica... Again, that's not to put him down, its only because I'm in a stage of flamenco where I feel that understanding what a great player is doing will be the steps for improving my playing. I already know that when I attend this show next week that I will be lost. Everything will be over my head except for the harmonica, and I would rather hear a dog fart than to hear the harmonica...
I can't put Paco down, (or even the harmonica player for that matter), I can only put myself down for not being a more open listener, and for not being a good enough musician to understand his style of playing... If I think of "modern flamenco" and the use of some jazz or classical inspired voicing's, I think of this guy. At this point in my flamenco playing, I would love to just be able to play like this, and I think this is still a far cry from what Paco does, but its as "modern" as I want to get.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
They could have got a good Taxidermist and with today's robotic prosthetics he could have appeared all over the world for years yet, with some great backing tracks and firework shows at the end...
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
haha
i feel exactly the opposite. i like the newer stuff (Luzia, Cositas) the most. Also i like the more "dirty" and more relaxed sound in his recent concerts (specially that in Germany) with all the muted tones and unclear sound sometimes, the BEST, very mature playing.
But i don't like his group and all the Bass, Harmonica, etc.....just plain Bulerias with Cajon is what i need. Or he could do a Duo with Duquende or whomever he wants but not 10 people on stage
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
quote:
That don't mean that I wouldn't love to hear the 68 set today, but lots of long time listeners would say, "he's playing the same s**t he played over 40 years ago!" For me, I can understand the music Paco was playing then better than his later stuff, and that's probably why I like it better. Its not him, its me and my own shortfalls...
At least you admit to that, cuz it means you might like it someday....or not which is fine too. Zyrab was maybe the 2nd paco solo album I found and I heard it like WOW this music is really challenging to listen to, back burner for me, I can't get into it at all. AFter years of collecting flamenco recordings and revisiting .... Zyrab is for me Paco's artist peak and I am like christmas all over again seeing him play those exact falsetas (bulerias) for the FIRST time in person last night.
THere are artists that do play the same thing as always and the weird thing for me is that is so LESS typical for people to do what you describe, at least regarding flamenco in this country. I mean imagine I buy a ticket every year to see Paco Peña, and after EVERY freaking concert I come on foro and announce "Darn it!!!! He played that same ol montoya Rondeña, sabicas Zapateado and Ricardo Solea as years ago! And that **** was old already in 1950! When is he ever gonna get with it and bring me some good ol electric bass and sax or harmonica like the other players in spain are doing and do some improv rumba in D#!". I mean you should know what the hell you are buying a ticket for...or at least WANT to know. It's silly at this point, but it never fails after every time PDL comes around its the same **** from the same mentality that folk have about it. I am just burnt about it at this point. I am about to go on oldshcool foro and announce Paco is playing Panaderos, Impetu, Guajiras, and Mantilla de feria in lieu of the bass player and harmonica being deported back to spain...just for fun.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo It's silly at this point, but it never fails after every time PDL comes around its the same **** from the same mentality that folk have about it.
I think its because they, in the end, cannot help that Paco IS representing flamenco to the whole world. The critics feel misrepresented by someone who plays too much fusion type stuff (from their point of view). They want the most popular flamenco player in the world to be a traditional player. They want Paco Pena to be more popular than Lucia. The fact that this is not the case, makes them take a rant on Paco's throne.
Its not Paco or his music (precisely: their disliking of his music) which turns them off. If it would be just that that just wouldnt go to his concerts. Its him (and modern flamenco) being successfull.
ANother point is... Paco is the player who has made the biggest development from very traditional to very modern. It implies that modern is an evolution of traditional. I think that creates some sort of inferiority complex in some people too.
Anyway, its sad to see this kind of cannibalism among traditional fanboys, but well... what can we do anyway. Not a big deal though.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Its not Paco or his music (precisely: their disliking of his music) which turns them off. If it would be just that that just wouldnt go to his concerts. Its him (and modern flamenco) being successfull.
That implies they are sort of jealous or angry that PDL is the top figure. I don't think so, I think they really don't understand how Paco can call his playing "flamenco" because it is so different from what they understand IS flamenco. For some Cante is a tough thing to get into cuz it is so challenging to listen to. Something like Norman's site is great cuz he has short clips of letras to compare. That really saves the listener trouble of going through HOURS of recordings trying to make head or tails of the likes and differences or evolution. Same with his falsetas on his sight, like alzapua. Short and clear examples.
I think we need a "Paco for Old schoolers" website where we start with old school and graduate it by short falsetas to help folks appreciate the evolution, because I honestly love Paco's old stuff equally to the new and infact the evolution of it from A to Z is really more beautiful then the individual time periods. I think it would also make folks more clear about why the like certain players over others in general as Paco is the only player that has evolved that much and so clearly on record in the genre. It might even make electric bass and harmonic a non issue...though I know it's tough! But it's not about liking paco or not...simply understanding better what is going on with the forms and how paco's pieces now a days are still related to Nino Ricardo etc because I honestly feel a lot of people don't see the connection at all.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo I think we need a "Paco for Old schoolers" website where we start with old school and graduate it by short falsetas to help folks appreciate the evolution,
if you google "evolution of a falseta" you should find a website that shows the evolution of a solea arpeggio from i think Escudero or Ricardo to Paco.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
I was there and I thought it was totally awesome.
The first bulerias with rio de la miel falsetas was absolutely breathtaking. And the rest was great. Oh and I was in the first row right in front of the speaker and first I was a little worried. But the sound was great and the thumb work was pretty clear to me, not sure why others are complaining.
Although I was hoping that he would play alegrias when he came back for encore, instead I got a rumba. Sheits. Oh well people like that pretty stuff like Cancion de Amor and Entre dos Aguas.
Also snapped a little picture.
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RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
No one music genre is an island. There is no "Pure" really.
Everything comes from what ever came before it. "outside influences" have existed from the get go.
Thats how creation and composing works. A writer cant write anything if he just sits in room alone, listening and watching the same things over and over day after day, with no new inspirations or expiriences.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
Having heard Humberto's rather in-depth argument regarding his preference for old-school flamenco, I think I can make a decent argument for it myself.
I don't think it has anything to do with an inability to follow new developments. Humberto himself saw what Enrique Morente was doing in the period before he delved into Lorca and considers his innovations to be incredible. Humberto doesn't have a problem with outside influences, but he objects when a particular palo loses its "essence". A good example is the recent trend of speeding up siguiriyas. Personally, I understand why flamenco guitarists do it and HOW exactly they are innovating... and so does Humberto... but he believes that doing this makes it sound like a slightly modified bulerias. More specifically, he thinks that this is not doing justice to the song and dance upon which the palo was based.
Humberto also takes issue with particular accents in bulerias -- for example, a bulerias that is primarily counted in sixes is eerily similar to a rumba, and loses the "punchy" feeling of the classic accenting, or even more funky accents.
Guys like Humberto may not be theory monsters or know everything about harmony, but I definitely understand where they are coming from.
That said, my favorite Paco album is Luzia, and I eat up the modern stuff w/o any problems, so... :)
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Ricardo)
Paco is Paco, he's great. I'm stoked to see him. Last time was great, and I'm sure this will be as well. I saw Paco Pena a while back, and almost fell asleep so .... I'm not stuck on old or new. Best concert otherwise was the pre-bad hand Gerardo Concert a few years ago a Millenium Park ... Awesome.
Hopefully get to see a Ricardo Marlow show here some time. :)
Jeff
quote:
The last time he came to US I think was 2007. 5 year gap, yet he plays around the world every year. With the general (I say 80 to 90% of "Flamenco" fans that go see him) attitude that what he plays is NOT flamenco anymore, or just some jazz ****, I am surprised he comes to USA AT ALL EVER. Same thing every time he comes I hear "oh I hope he plays some good ol flamenco this time" or "I saw the same exact concert 10 years ago" or "paco doesn't have the speed anymore" etc etc type crap. He said in an interview I think in 1997 or so that America audiences are warm, but still stuck on Sabicas era flamenco and don't understand what he is playing. Sorry fellow americans, but its true and it's embarrassing. I hope Paco has SOME good success with tour and decides to return cuz he still plays great and these gaps are getting longer and longer between visits it seems.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
why is there always arguement when paco's concert comes up? paco is this, this, that that.. can't we just enjoy him for what he is? a great composer, and someone that changed how flamenco is played? and (of course) the only innovator in flamenco heeheehee
a difference between led zep and paco is that, the original led zep is still playing the same type of music that they were playing in the 70s, but paco in every decade sounds slightly different. Maybe that's why paco don't play his older stuff? I have never seen paco live, except for on youtube.. I wish australia has more flamenco shows.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Estevan)
I saw Paco Penas last "traditional" show...was that fusion with the guys from Guatemala or Bolivia or whatever it was
quote:
Hi Todd,
Long time no speak...
Yeah, that's the overall impression I got when I saw him. I felt it was a different artist to the one I "knew". Things seemed very muffled with occasional 5 seconds burst of stuff.
Nothing like the immaculately clean stuff like Guajiras de Lucia or El Tempúl or even the brilliant falsetas when he was with El Camaron.
Sounded tired,
Came away pretty disappointed with the sound of a pretty average club band and Larry Adler ringing in my ears.
Where was this Paco de Lucia?
Got back and put on some early albums and he was there!
Hey...not exactly running out to buy the latest Bob Dylan album either.
Guess that's the way it goes....you make your mark and become a legend and folk will pay good money just to say they have seen you.
He deserves his money IMO.
Just like McCartney or Chuck Berry.
cheers,
Ron
Jeez you guys are tough crowd
The guy has been doing it all his life, hes much older, obviously u not gonna be as hungry or as eager to impress with technique as he was in his prime, or it wont sound as crisp... it would be so so hard being Paco cause audiences don't just expect the familiar songs but the almost superhuman technique day in day out..
I don't know if he has anything but todk said he noticed him rubbing his hands at times...i guess after that many years of playing at that level, for that long you hands start to hurt... guess if you have arthritis or something u save a little on the force you put in to each note so u last the whole show.
Id love it if he came to Australia just to be able to say I saw him live..
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
I would love him to come here also. I dont listen to his later stuff as much as his earlier work. but I would probably enjoy hearing him play andything he was in the mood for at the time
Posts: 1156
Joined: Dec. 6 2006
From: Hamilton, ON
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
I love how so many people define "traditional" basically as "whatever was current when I got into flamenco," as if Paco Peña or Sabicas or Niño Ricardo were playing something which flamencos in the 1910s would consider "traditional." After all, everyone knows flamenco was invented (rather, given to us from atop Mount Sinai) in 1955.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to BarkellWH)
Those who think that to not care for Paco's current performances and recordings as flamenco means one does not "understand" what Paco is doing, or one does not "get" it, should re-examine their premise. I completely understand what Paco is doing and the boundaries he pushed to get where he is today. I appreciate all that he has done to advance flamenco. But for some time now, he has pushed the boundaries to a point that no longer appeals to me as flamenco. It is not because I do not "understand" it, or that I need to reach a more advanced stage of appreciation. Rather, it is simply that I don't care for it as flamenco.
That said, although it is not my flamenco cup of tea, I will always attend a concert by Paco because of his unmatched virtuosity on the guitar. While bass guitars and harmonicas do nothing for me as flamenco, I appreciate and enjoy very much the overall performance, with Paco as the guitar-master at its center. His unmatched virtuosity is both an auditory and visual delight. If Paco were to add kettle drums and a kazoo to his group, I would still attend, not for flamenco, but for the overall music experience, again, with Paco and his amazing guitar at the center.
There are those on the Foro who have referred to Paco as "God" in their posts. I assume they use the term in a metaphorical sense. But metaphorically-speaking, to refer to someone as "God" implies a religion, and with religion, we leave the realm of reason and enter the realm of faith, where nothing can be questioned by the true believer. Those who might question an article of faith are branded as heretics. There is no room for differences of opinion, even though different individuals, looking at the same set of facts and circumstances may come to different conslusions. There is only one true path for the true believer.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 370
Joined: May 23 2007
From: Frederick, MD
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
Really strange reactions to Paco here.
I think he once said in some interview "I am flamenco so everything I play is flamenco". Imho the bulerias, seguiriya, tangos and all the other stuff that he played at this concert was as flamenco as it gets, novel keys and the rumbas aside.
The guy is 65 and manages to put on amazing performance.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
You guys are so lucky to have seen him recently! Looks like I will miss him as I am traveling at the moment. I would have loved to see him one last (?) time...
I also understand the latest stuff from Paco, and I am amazed by its complexity. The deeper you go into it the more amazing it gets. But for me the recordings I like listening to the most are Siroco, Zyryab and Luzia. But if I were to pick just one that is very special it would be Almoraima. The feeling in it is unique, it makes me feel young and in love.
Although 90% of Paco's stuff I listen to for the last 10 years are his collaborations with Camaron and the other singers. The Como el agua CD is just perfect for all the artists featured.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to ToddK)
Don't you know? Every piece of bling gives you more soniquete and every extra day you let your hair grow gives you more aire. Just like the decals and large rims on your ride give you extra HP.
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Bogdan1980)
quote:
I think he once said in some interview "I am flamenco so everything I play is flamenco".
Yes I heard him say that, and mentioned it here some time ago. It was in 1980, when someone asked him about 'Entre dos aguas', and how it could be considered flamenco.
(Actually, iirc, he said "I am a flamenco", so it wasn't quite like "L'état, c'est moi", or Dalí's response when asked his thoughts on drugs: "I am drugs!")
It's an interesting way of defining a musical genre.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco de Lucia's Performance in W... (in reply to Grisha)
quote:
But if I were to pick just one that is very special it would be Almoraima.
My sentiments exactly, Grisha. Almoraima is my favorite as well.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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