The neck has moved on my Pedro Maldonado

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

The neck has moved on my Pedro Maldonado

Over the last year I have noticed the gradual shifting of the neck on my Pedro maldonado guitar. I am as low as i can go using normal tension strings and the action is now bugging me. The shifting of the neck has raised the action about 1mm overall. But that 1mm was crucial to comfort. And i have nothing left to play with. The strings are now too low over the soundboard choking the sound and the action is still high..Getting close to 3mm

The neck at the first fret is a little thinner than i like and this adds to the problem.
I love this guitar and plan on keeping it for the long term. I have been thinking about my options to rectify these problems.

If the neck was thicker at the first fret i would consider shaving a little off the finger board at that end, and then refretting with jumbo frets. But I don't want to go any thinner down that end, i want it to be thicker. I have also thought about having 80or 90 % of the fretboard removed and a new one glued on top. But with the neck in the shape it's in, it will need to be too thick and chunky above the 12th fret to give me the action i would like. Ideally the action needs to come up at the bridge as it is now far too low over the soundboard.

Is it possible to remove the majority of the finger board and then make a saw cut at the 12th fret and reset the neck by glueing on the new finger board? I realize this would pose a risk in altering the guitars feel, tension, sound etc. But so would opening up the back for a neck reset.

If it was possible to reset the neck i could also add some thickness at the first fret with the new fingerboard and have the action set up perfectly.

I know a luthier that i would trust to do the job. He has done a great job replacing finger boards on other guitars.

Advice from you luthiers would be much appreciated. What would you do? If i can sort out these two issues the guitar will be amazing.

I realize that making this type of alteration could devalue the guitar but as I intend to keep it, and love its sound, I just want it to feel comfortable. In my mind I don't think it would alter the sound of the box too greatly. Has anyone tried this or know of a better option?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 9:49:42

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 12:06:56

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Your Maldonado is most likely made with a Spanish style neck (mortised sides). The only way the neck can move is by pushing a bulge into the back and collapsing the top from the 12th fret to the sound hole. If that is happening fixing it would require very extensive rebuilding. Are you sure the neck is moving rather than warping?

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 14:41:32

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Are you sure the neck is moving rather than warping?

I'm not sure to be honest. But the body of the guitar has no noticeable warping or deformities. There is a slight upward curve built into the top but that has remained unchanged since new. There is no dipping of the sound board between the bridge and sound hole. Perhaps warping of the neck is a better description. The back and top still look unchanged since new. But the action has increased. What is the traditional way to deal with neck warping?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 14:51:30

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Hold the sixth string down at the first fret and 12th fret and see how far it is from the 7th fret. There should be only a tiny amount of space from the bottom of the string to the top of the 7th fret. It's an easy way to check for warping.

If it is warping the it can be fixed in several ways.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 21:13:56

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Thank you for replying jshelton,

I did your test and the space between the string and top of the fret at the 7th fret is about 1 mm or slightly over. I took some photos so you can see how the action is now.

I am just off the timber at the bridge to get the action here. The saddle originally was about 3mm above the bridge and the action was lower.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 23:04:52

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Here is the heel

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 7 2012 23:05:59

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

I did your test and the space between the string and top of the fret at the 7th fret is about 1 mm or slightly over. I took some photos so you can see how the action is now.

A mm is too much in my opinion but not extremely so. Your action looks high in the pictures but without having the guitar in my hands it's hard to say what's happening. Try to find a competant luthier to look at your guitar. I've seen a couple of Maldonados and overall think they are a well crafted guitar. You might try using a lower tension string.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2012 18:15:28

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

A mm is too much in my opinion but not extremely so. Your action looks high in the pictures but without having the guitar in my hands it's hard to say what's happening. Try to find a competant luthier to look at your guitar. I've seen a couple of Maldonados and overall think they are a well crafted guitar. You might try using a lower tension string.

Thanks jshelton,

I agree that maldonados guitars are well constructed. I think i may have just gotten unlucky with this neck. When i look closely i can detect some slight bowing which appears to start around the 6th fret. Also it's possible that the curve under the bridge has raised a little as the guitar has loosened up over the years. And the two combined has created this issue?

I have tried low tension strings and the difference is still not enough to fix the comfort issue. Also by having the strings so low at the bridge now, I am unable to bring out the guitars full potential. I know this guitars capabilities and i would love to be able to sort this out.

I will take the guitar to an experienced luthier. I really want to save it. I would still appreciate any advice from the luthiers here. I am interested to know if anyone here has successfully rectified a problem like this on a guitar? And how they went about it?

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2012 22:32:17

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

If all else fails the solution will probably be to put a new fingerboard on the guitar. The thickness (not width) of the fingerboard is usually tapered, slightly thicker at the nut end than at the soundhole end, or sometimes it will be even along its length. Either way a new fingerboard can be put on that is tapered in the other direction (e.g. 5.5 mm at the nut, 6 mm at the 12 fret) so that the action can be set low with plenty of string height at the bridge.
Another option that I've heard about is "compression fretting" where frets with an oversized tang (the part that is embedded in the figerboard) are used to push the neck back to flat.

I'm not a big repair guy so I haven't done either one of those but I know they're both done, and probably will be your best options.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2012 22:58:46

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

The neck has moved on my Pedro Maldonado

Finally I can throw in a cite from Ron!! Hahaha

... Sorry KMM I feel with you but I need to post that link!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2012 23:14:25

kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Doit, you are the most unpredictable member here, you always have something in your posts which keeps me very interested in checking out your posts

@KMMI77 sorry to hear that man, I hope it gets fixed asap!!

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2012 23:51:38

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

If all else fails the solution will probably be to put a new fingerboard on the guitar. The thickness (not width) of the fingerboard is usually tapered, slightly thicker at the nut end than at the soundhole end, or sometimes it will be even along its length. Either way a new fingerboard can be put on that is tapered in the other direction (e.g. 5.5 mm at the nut, 6 mm at the 12 fret) so that the action can be set low with plenty of string height at the bridge.

Thanks Andy,

I am thinking along those same lines. Do you know if it is possible to adjust the angle of the neck when replacing a fingerboard? This is the part that is confusing me. If 90% of the finger board was removed and a new one glued on top, Could the new finger board aid in holding the neck in a new position?

Doit,

I will save this video for when something happens to you,

Thanks kudo, Me too

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:06:00

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

Doit, I will save this video for when something happens to you,

heheheh

.
.
..
.
.DANGIT!! -.-

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:09:10

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

(e.g. 5.5 mm at the nut, 6 mm at the 12 fret) so that the action can be set low with plenty of string height at the bridge.

In the first picture i posted you can see the action now. If i raised the action at the bridge to where it needs to be ( about 2.5mm higher) You can imagine where the action would be then. I feel like the new fingerboard would need to be very thick and chunky if i cant reposition the neck as part of the process. I would like the action to be about 2.5 at the 12th fret.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:16:34

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to kudo)

quote:

Doit, you are the most unpredictable member here, you always have something in your posts which keeps me very interested in checking out your posts

Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it. *confucius

:>

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:24:32

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Hey Kris.. sorry to hear about the problem.
I've had the problems you mentioned fixed before..

on
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=172177&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=bridge%2Ccrack&tmode=&smode=&s=#172251

it was a bowed neck, the luthier recommended replacing fretboard + putting a carbon fibre rod. He also made the nut side fretboard slightly thicker, so it might also help out in your 'neck being thinner in the nut'. (www.mandaliguitars.com did it for me). ($3-400)

on the neck moving situation.
on my other guitar the neck has moved forward as well. I got a thicker fretboard put on, so it's thicker on the 12th fret. that solved the problem and I was able to have a higher saddle. (Jeff Highland on this site did it for me) ($3-400)

but you mentioned that if you go down this route, the thickness of the neck would be too chucky around the 12th fret area.

So, there's another solution by another luthier (Teen Goh), he mentioned that when a fingerboard is off, you are able to move the neck back and forth. So if you stick a new fingerboard on (the same dimension of the old one), you would be able to reset the angle of the neck by pushing the neck back and then sticking the fingerboard onto it. The new fingerboard would be able to hold the new neck angle in it's place. I really trust in him cuz he's highly recommended by Greg and I know of other flamenco guitarists going to him. But he is freaking expensive. He told me about $1000 to do this.
I've never done it before tho.

Hope this helps!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:30:55

JuanDaBomb

Posts: 189
Joined: May 18 2011

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

How about heating the neck and bending it?

I did that to one of my guitars and it's holding its new curvature fine. The problem with my particular guitar is that it had a backbow in the neck/fretboard, so I had to bend it forward but you can also bend it backwards by repositioning the clamps. If the guitar isn't too valuable and you're a hands-on type of person, I'd try it. (assuming that the problem is neck relief, of course; otherwise I'm way off the mark here.

)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 0:59:36

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to HolyEvil)

quote:

So, there's another solution by another luthier (Teen Goh),

Hey holy, Thanks for the tips mate.I was estimating about $1000 to fix it. I also have teen goh as someone i would consider to do the job. I would also trust Lance litchfield to do it as well. His quote is about the same.

Juandabomb. Thanks for your input as well. This guitar was not cheap so i would not attempt to do it myself. I would also prefer to work with the timber now that it has settled into a new position. I feel in the long run it will be more secure if no heating is involved. Thanks again.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 1:29:29

Guest

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Hi Kris
sorry to hear...
i know nothing from the luthier end...ie repair
but
my friend recently had Jim Redgate rework the neck of a 66 Ramirez...sounds like a similiar issue as i knew the guitar before my friend bought it which in turn made me decide not to buy it
anyway
he removed the fretboard...made some adjustments [ie sanding] to the neck...re attatched the fingerboard
not sure if the actual neck was removed but will ask tonight at class
the guitar plays beautifully
just suggesting another australian luthier worth contacting....
hope it works out...there are a few Maldonado's here in Adelaide and they are beautiful guitars...http://redgateguitars.com.au/

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 5:47:43

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

quote:

So, there's another solution by another luthier (Teen Goh),

Hey holy, Thanks for the tips mate.I was estimating about $1000 to fix it. I also have teen goh as someone i would consider to do the job. I would also trust Lance litchfield to do it as well. His quote is about the same.

hopefully you can get someone local to do it. so you don't have to send the guitar to and fro. I believe Teen would accept postage to him, not sure whether he would send it out, if anything I can help pack and send it back to you when it's done (if you go with Teen and not someone local). I consider you my friend and would love to help in anyway I can.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 6:31:50

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Thanks Alval,It is always good to have a few luthiers to consider and get advice from. I really love the sound of this guitar and have no other complaints. I just want to fix it so i can enjoy it again.

Holy, I really appreciate that mate! If i opt to send the guitar down your way and have any issues, It's nice to have someone i would trust there. I'll let you know how i get on.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 8:02:14

Guest

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

quote:

will ask tonight

the run down on Jims work was
under heat removed fingerboard
'under tension'
heated neck to correct angle
routed neck
then filled rout with carbon fibre to stabilise neck angle ( it is a 40+ guitar..)
replaced original fingerboard

this is a guitarists explaination...in simple...can pass on details...
sounds like you could do it locally...some fine luthiers up your way...with or without the carbon fibre

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 13:29:07

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

damn that sucks, they really are great guitars, i tried about 4 different ones here all of them have really nice response /action, loud, sweet..hope u sort it out

everything feels better and comes out louder and clearer on them: picado, rasqueado, alzapua... amazing guitars

i don't know if u got a guy u trust there to help u fix it, this is prob not much help to you but i have a guy here who did my soundport, fixed a crack, fixes whatever probs i have... etc...hes a good guy, has got a facebook, i can put u in touch with him if u need any more advice or whatever...

and obviously there are the very qualified luthiers here,

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2012 13:57:48

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to Guest)

Hey Alval,

Thanks for the rundown. That sounds interesting. Heating and removing the finger board. Sounds scary! The carbon rod sounds good. I'm not sure how risky this type of procedure is.

I am going to take the guitar out to Lance first and see what he says. At least i know that he is the sort of guy that will only touch it if he's 100% sure of a good result. When he is not, he usually won't touch it and explains the risks. I have played three guitars that he has replaced the finger board on and sorted out action issues. They all turned out great.

Hey florian, Thanks man. I'll see how i go with the local guys. Yes the sound and power of this guitar is outstanding. It's well worth fixing. I feel like it may even be better once fixed.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2012 5:25:43

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Unfortunately you cannot adjust the neck angle when the fretboard is removed with spanish construction.
The only ways are to adjust the surface of the fretboard by planing lower at the nut or adding a thicker board, or by loosening the back of the guitar from the sides and the heel foot and regluing with the neck angle adjusted (a difficult and aesthetically unsatisfactory procedure)

It appears from what you have measured, that the neck relief is excessive and this is the first thing to tackle. I am not a fan of attempting to straighten the neck by heating, but there are a few other techniques which can work.

How low are you getting on the string height above the soundboard at the bridge?
If break angle is your main concern here, I can do 12 hole conversions without bridge removal.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 10 2012 22:29:59

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

How low are you getting on the string height above the soundboard at the bridge?
If break angle is your main concern here, I can do 12 hole conversions without bridge removal.

Hey Jeff,

The string height at the bridge now is 6.5 mm. That was as low as i could go and lower than i wanted to. It plays best at around 8- 8.5 mm. There is a guy here who has a long drill bit and a guide/jig, who could drill the extra holes if necessary. I realize that in the end i may have to compromise a bit. Maybe i will have to go with a thicker finger board and a 12 hole tie block.

Any further suggestions you have would be much appreciated. Thanks

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2012 8:02:17

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

The thicker fretboard would be the go
You will probably only need to be 1- 1.5mm thicker at the 12th fret to get you the extra height at the bridge.
Preferably have the board glued on with Hot Hide Glue and clamped flat and that will fix the excess relief in the neck at the same time. Hot hide glue does not creep like Titebond when exposed to high temperatures like sitting in a car.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 11 2012 22:02:48

KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

The thicker fretboard would be the go
You will probably only need to be 1- 1.5mm thicker at the 12th fret to get you the extra height at the bridge.
Preferably have the board glued on with Hot Hide Glue and clamped flat and that will fix the excess relief in the neck at the same time. Hot hide glue does not creep like Titebond when exposed to high temperatures like sitting in a car.

Thanks a lot Jeff, I will pass on your suggestion to the luthier.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2012 3:11:03

valerea

Posts: 4
Joined: Apr. 12 2012

RE: The neck has moved on my Pedro M... (in reply to KMMI77)

Hi Ive just had a similar issue with my Michael Gee, except in reverse!! It plays very high but fortunately, for a 35 year old guitar it has no warping. It was repaired by a top luthier by replacing the fingerboard and french polishing. Expensive though over 400 english pounds!! But worth every penny!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 12 2012 12:52:46