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RE: Would you like to have Jason McGuire back on foroflamenco?
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[Poll]
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Would you like to have Jason McGuire back on foroflamenco?
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| Yes - we want Jason back! |
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| No - we don't want Jason! |
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Total Votes : 100
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(last vote on : Jun. 10 2020 23:42:50)
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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 RE: Would you like to have Jason McG... (in reply to hamia)
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quote:
An overly pious attitude I think. Although we are guests we have rights and the users of the forum are what makes the forum. I don't see why we should be tiptoeing around trying to avoid upsetting those with thin skins. For example, if we see a 4th rate flamenco player setting himself up as a guru we have every right to have a go at him - respecting certain limits of decency of course. It seems these days that everyone's opinion is equally valid no matter how crazy.
Not sure what you mean by "pious "as there is no reference to religion at all here , and I dont claim that we should "tiptoe "around.
As you said the users of the forum make the forum , so lets make it the best one we can for everybody , ....Now you really belive you have the right to have a go at people? , because you dont agree with what they do ? and what are these limits of decency that you mention ?, and who sets them?
Is'nt what you mention the same as what i said about "deliberately controversial or annoying messages" and "any rules that have been put down for the usage of this site " would not all that cover the limits of decency?
I may well set myself up as a 4th rate flamenco guru (if I could get that good) , those that dont like it dont follow me, or read any posts.
those that realize how bad I am would know, and could warn others against me or not . So long as I didnt post deliberaly annoying messages or start arguments etc... then , Here on the net , I can do quite a lot , and , no I dont belive you have the Right "to have a go" at people.
P.S.
Having thought about this I also realize that this may be in itself a controversial post , it's not intended to be annoying but merely in keeping with the thread so far ...just to make that bit clear.
_____________________________
Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jan. 23 2012 14:57:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Would you like to have Jason McG... (in reply to hamia)
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quote:
It seems these days that everyone's opinion is equally valid no matter how crazy.
My first enounters with internet forums other then lurking was with Flamenco Teacher. As a lurker in other forums not related to flamenco I learned a lot just reading, and never felt compelled to post opinions of my own that were un informed....yet I noticed LOTS of others doing it with no problems. Questions are a different matter, but even there it is funny to see people not liking the more informed and experienced answers in some cases, and challenging back in what I would consider a disrespectful way if we were in a face to face situation or class room or lecture hall etc. But behind a computer console it seemed there are new rules to having a discussion.
Anyway, my first postings at FT, I tried to present things in a matter of fact way, and was told bluntly that I spoke very arrogantly as if from an ivory tower and challenged at every turn to prove myself. I was told that respect is something earned and that I was not entitled to it. So I felt, after all I had gone through in the REAL world to gain expertise in a certain field, I now had to start over by carefully wording everything before posting and add the redundant "IMO" after every controversial idea that might go counter to another's, obviously inexperienced opinion.
It was frustrating for me because till then I only was used to real life dealings with colleagues and students face to face with guitar in hand. But I still saw value in the idea of an internet community and ever since have learned to be VERY political with posting my opinions and wording my posts, and swallowing certain back lash attitudes with hope of a real face to face meeting with certain online personalities one day. So I do feel certain compromises that have to be made when posting in forums...compromises that some very experienced artists honestly should not need to make.
I have had several posts wisely deleted by admin with no warnings or anything, as for whatever reason my political filter was off and my emotions and true thoughts poor out un checked. I guess I am known and respected enough that admins see that and are like "oh, Ricardo must be drinking or something better delete it!" 
But anyway, my point is that a guy like McGuire deserves a special respect for his credentials....if that is always respected there wouldn't be a need for arguments and such on FLAMENCO topics. It is just silly. For example, if McGuire has an opinion counter to my own, I have to first respect MY PLACE in the flamenco world of reality, that is that he has more years of experience, is an older person then me as well (I try to respect anyone older then me if I actually know their age, another problem with internet communications), and can do some things on guitar I can't do. If I need to challenge him it would not really benefit me or anyone else until I felt as his equal....and in most cases once I get to that point I find myself more in agreement with the more experienced anyway. I feel the same about certain other members as well, such as Norman. It is very uncomfortable for me to disagree with him on cante subjects, even though we have had some differences, he just has done so much more work on the subject that I need to just shut up and listen to the guy most of the time.
Anyway, NO I don't want Jason back.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 23 2012 16:04:11
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Would you like to have Jason McG... (in reply to rombsix)
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I two will never reach Jason's level in flamenco, even if I live 150 years! Anyone who don't see his skill is just jealous or lying...
Before ever joining the Foro I had watched his videos, and some of them can give the impression of arrogance... If I was that good maybe I would also give an impression of arrogance...
I don't know what the falling out was about, but it is clear that Jason has strong opinions as most of us do. Only thing is, he can back it all up with a smile...
Often times artists tend to be misunderstood and perhaps that's part of the problem. On the other hand I emailed him about coming up to Oakland and taking some lessons from him and found him to be a little short. It was almost like I was wasting his time. I told him I would like to get a flight up and take some lessons for as much as 6 hours per day, for 3 days. He emailed me back with some one sentence reply that just said something along the lines of, we can do that in a few months. No, thanks for contacting me, no, sure we can set up a few days for you to study, nothing friendly at all. When I replied back and enquired as to his rates for 3 days, he gave another one line message which just said, "I charge $75 per hour." For those prices I thought I would just save the money toward a new guitar and hang in with Jose Tanaka... A man can charge what ever he wants to charge, but that don't mean I'll pay it... I didn't want a handout, but most smart folks will give a discount for multiple lessons. Guess Jason just didn't need the money, and there isn't anything wrong with that either.
People can think and say what ever they want and it makes no difference. It does seem that some get away with it while others get shut down. I don't mean that remark to be about the Foro as much as I do life in general...
I wouldn't mind having Jason back, I'm sure he could add a lot of enrichment to things. As I said, the guy is just a great player hands down, but sometimes things are about being more than a great player, you need to have a good attitude. I'm not saying Jason don't, because I don't know him. My only direct dealings with him were short and apparently wasn't worth either of our time.
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Date Jan. 23 2012 16:52:48
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Shawn Brock
Posts: 271
Joined: Sep. 19 2011
From: Louisville KY
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RE: Would you like to have Jason McG... (in reply to El Kiko)
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Ricardo,
Having the experience of giving lessons I know how tiring it can be, especially when someone don't get what you are trying to teach them. I also know that time goes faster when you are working with someone who wants to learn and can make steady progress.
As for if he should discount his time, that's subjective and all depends on the person. Think of it this way, if someone offers you a gig across the country, would you charge them the same price per night if they were hiring you for 3 nights, or would you discount your nightly rate? Most professionals I have ever worked with including myself tend to cut the rate when its more than one engagement. As I said, people need to do what ever they want to do, but I will only pay that kind of money to spend time with god, not a musician. That's about a third of the price as a good trip to Spain, and I would value that experience more... But that's just me. I know classical guitar professors who get half of that per hour, but people can charge what they want... We have traveled off topic, and I'm sure that's my doing...
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Date Jan. 23 2012 18:39:24
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Would you like to have Jason McG... (in reply to Shawn Brock)
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75.00 for an audience with the almightly? Sign me up!
Seriously, what some folks might not understand is that normal rates for labor by the hour simply do not apply to musicians because musicians don't get 40 hours a week of work, or paid holidays and sick pay, etc. Not to mention SS benefits, so although 75. an hour sounds like a lot of money, it really isn't.
I employ tradesmen in a small business. The gross wage is 62.32 an hour for regular time. Plus SS and worker's compensation insurance. A talented motivated individual can reach journeyman status in three-four years. That can't happen with a music instructor.
A mediocre player can earn more than 75. an hour doing a background music gig. A top player is going to charge what the market will pay for his/her services.
There are many music instructors who charge more, and many who charge less. Six hours of lessons in a day-I can't see how either the instructor or student could benefit or want that kind of arrangement, but if both parties agree, so be it.
A trip to the promised land, including food, lessons, and a place to stay is closer to 5k.
As far as Jason, I saw him play maybe 15 years ago, and it took me no time at all to decide I wanted to study with him. He's a great player and teacher. In an hour he, as well as most pros, can give most players enough to chew on for quite some time.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shawn Brock
Ricardo,
Having the experience of giving lessons I know how tiring it can be, especially when someone don't get what you are trying to teach them. I also know that time goes faster when you are working with someone who wants to learn and can make steady progress.
As for if he should discount his time, that's subjective and all depends on the person. Think of it this way, if someone offers you a gig across the country, would you charge them the same price per night if they were hiring you for 3 nights, or would you discount your nightly rate? Most professionals I have ever worked with including myself tend to cut the rate when its more than one engagement. As I said, people need to do what ever they want to do, but I will only pay that kind of money to spend time with god, not a musician. That's about a third of the price as a good trip to Spain, and I would value that experience more... But that's just me. I know classical guitar professors who get half of that per hour, but people can charge what they want... We have traveled off topic, and I'm sure that's my doing...
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Date Jan. 23 2012 21:01:40
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just kidding) guy that you just met??? Then you ask his fee and think he is driving up the price or something. Why should you deserve a DISCOUNT because you want to take up SIX hours of his time??? 
