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michael k

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Jun. 9 2005
From: milwaukee

flamenco pedagogy 

greetings folks. I just signed up (again. signed up a long time ago then lost touch) and am happy to see so many involved. My name is michael and I am a flamenco guitar performance major at the university of wisconsin-milwaukee. I am writing a paper on the history of flamenco pedagogy and I'm having a hell of a time (and it's already really late).
I was hoping someone might be able to tell me when about the first flamenco methods were published and who wrote them. I'm having a hard time finding the info online. I was also wondering when the first schools in the US started popping up and which ones they were. If anyone could help me I'd appreciate it.
thank you
michael
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 9 2005 22:36:14
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

Michael;

Here are the oldest flamenco method books I have.

El Arte Flamenco
Jack Buckingham
1957

Jack taught at the University of California at Berkeley

Flamenco Guitar
Ivor Mairants
1958

There is an accompanying LP in which Paco Peña was the guitarist using another name.
Ivor Mairants was a famous British guitarist.

Escuela del Flamenco
Mariano Cordoba
1965

Mariano was the accompanist for Antonio and the Spanish Ballet. Antonio was the greatest male flamenco dancer! Mariano began teaching in San Francisco during the late 1950’s, when I first met him.

Juan Serrano lived in San Francisco for a number of years and his first method book was:
Flamenco Guitar – Basic Techniques
1979

Juan was Professor of Guitar at Fresno State University in California, and recently retired.

Carlos Montoya and Sabicas lived in the United States. It is said that neither taught but there is some evidence that Carlos did teach several people. Mario Escudero also lived in the United States and taught many students.

If you need any specific information about the above then send me an e-mail.

By the way I think I have just about all method books published. I may have missed a few though!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 0:11:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

michael, if you go to flamenco-world.com, you will find an article about a flamenco pedagogue, from I think 1920.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 0:16:44
 
michael k

 

Posts: 2
Joined: Jun. 9 2005
From: milwaukee

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

thank you thomas that is very useful to me. I sent an e-mail with a couple more questions if you dont mind.

miguel i looked for the interview but i couldn't find it. i found some but they were very recent. do you remember where you found it?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 2:14:45
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

Hi Michael.

That becomes an interesting article I think, is it possible, when you finish it, to publish it here, or make it possible to get a copy?

Peter.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 7:44:55
 
eslastra

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thomas Whiteley


By the way I think I have just about all method books published. I may have missed a few though!


Tom,

Have you seen the 'Mario Escudero' book that contains transcriptions done by Edward Freeman of Dallas, Texas? I think this was published in 1962. These very same pieces were again transcribed in the mid '70s by Joseph Trotter of San Diego, CA in a book titled 'Mario Escudero'. He also did a book of transcriptions of Sabicas 'Flamenco Puro' album. I have a copy of each of these books

Oh, and we can't forget Mariano Cordoba's 'Folksingers Guide to the Flamenco Guitar' (also known as 'the black book'.) I think that was published in the early '70's.

_____________________________

Eddie Lastra
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 8:39:06
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

Michael:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/rafaelmarin/marin.htm
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2005 17:34:10
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to eslastra

Eddie;

I do not have the 1962 edition but I do have the 1957 edition, from the ABC Paramount LP ABCS 396.

I also have the Flamenco Puro published in 1960 by Cuban Music Corporation as well as the Sabicas & Escudero Selected Solos for Guitar published by Hansen in 1962.

How can I forget Mariano’s 1971 Method book? As I know yours looks like mine with plenty of red pen marks from Mariano, to modify and customize the original! I did not want to include such a modern work though

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2005 2:27:17
 
minordjango

 

Posts: 918
Joined: Feb. 26 2005
 

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

I'd suggest if you can go to a local library and check out the followng issues of Magazines (I Australia) there is often many years of back issues

Guitar international and Guitar Review

There is always a few really interesting articals in there that may assist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2005 4:10:59
 
John the Greek

 

Posts: 1
Joined: Jun. 15 2005
 

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

"Juan Serrano lived in San Francisco for a number of years and his first method book was:
Flamenco Guitar – Basic Techniques "

That's the book I've started learning from, I've studied 2 volumes of classical theory and am moving on to flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2005 7:10:48
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to John the Greek

John;

Where are you located? Juan was one of my teachers and still is for that matter! :)

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2005 14:28:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

quote:

I am a flamenco guitar performance major at the university of wisconsin-milwaukee.


Wow, I did not know there was such a thing, that is cool. Who is the professor and how many students in the same program?

As far as flamenco "pedagogy", well the real stuff from Spain is handed down in the good ol, oral tradition manner. That is the way flamenco is learned in Spain, so these methods are not the same thing that they are to the classical guitar world, and more for the foreign market. You could pick up a good classical guitar method and go through just from the paper, but flamenco guitar doesn't work the same. I don't think transcription books are the same thing as a "pedagogy".

To some else who mentioned Edward Freeman...I know personally one of his top students who was given the giant "flamenco method" he developed, all hand written exercises, graduating pieces and master level transcriptions of young PdL and Sabicas. Freeman actually obtained legal copywrites for his transcriptions back in the early 60's, but my friend did not renew them. The entire book is really thick, like a Webster dictionary. He claims it really works as a "method", at least for him it did. But my friend also went to Spain and made his own transcriptions.

Anyway, good luck w/ your classes Michael K. I highly recommend you get the Rito y Geografia del Toque video series, so you can SEE the various technique schools and styles up close and in your face. A picture speaks a thousand words, but a video can speak millions.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2005 17:35:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

Michael:

http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/rafaelmarin/marin.htm


Did you guys check out the excerpt from his method book? A lot of times, the tab did not agree w/ the standard notation. Back then, who would have been the editor?

I understand why this guy Marin wanted to understand how to translate the beauty and power of flamenco, to a more intellectual audience or student base. Nowadays we have M. Sanlucar and his orchestrated "flamenco" works, and the things he discusses about music theory in interviews. I too come from a "studied music" background, but when it comes to learning flamenco, (especially in Spain), I prefer to forget about that stuff, the music training, and learn the "spanish way". It works better believe it or not. That is why there are so many in Spain, and they are so good...

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2005 17:59:54
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

That is why there are so many in Spain, and they are so good...


Yeah...I think they just hear tunes in their head and leave others to work out the theory to explain it.
This is honestly I think how it is done.
Like that Diego de Morao Buleria I posted a while back.
Do you really think the guy was sitting with an open book of Jazz chords, trying to work out what would be a great scale?
Or did he just play something that he thought sounded pretty good based on everything he had ever heard?
I would go for the latter myself.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that most great Flamenco players just hear in their head what's good.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2005 20:57:40
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I prefer to forget about that stuff, the music training, and learn the "spanish way".


Having been trained in classical music for piano and guitar I have to say that theory is one thing and reality is another.

In engineering we have an expression – “Theory and Practice” The two are not the same. Good engineers know how to make something work and the theorists spends volumes of time and research attempting what is acceptable academically.

When my flamenco guitar experience began in the late 1950’s I had and have no concern for theory. What is important is to immerse yourself with flamenco and enjoy it. Some classical music theory works for flamenco but is not truly the answer to questions you will have.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2005 1:42:12
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: flamenco pedagogy (in reply to michael k

quote:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel that most great Flamenco players just hear in their head what's good.


Of course, this is the essential thing! You have to hear it in your head--getting it out on the guitar is the easy part. In fact, I think this applies to playing guitar, singing, drawing, handwriting, dog training, networking, cooking...

1. Hear it in your head.

2. Then play it.

Another View

On the other hand, recently I have been studying a lot of classical theory, from a thick book written in the forties. I have gone through dozens of pages of blank sheet music, pencil, and use a keyboard, not a guitar, to play the exercises. I am also learning how to sight sing, which is to be able to sing music from sheet music, without having to hear the melody. What does this have to do with flamenco? Both nothing and everything.

I have found that, after a few months fo this training, I can hear, learn, and retain music much better. In fact, my friend Monty exclaimed: "You have a GREAT memory!" After I learned one of his falsetas in two tries. I learned a couple songs last week, and it happened very quickly, and I alreayd performed them in a gig the same week. I hear intervals out of the blue, "oh, that's a fourth, followed by a minor third", which automatically enables me to play them on the guitar or the keyboard. I hear chord progressions, "I to V", or "Andalusian Cadence", etc.

Now, this may or may not seem a big deal, but it does represent large increases in my musicianship, which has a direct result on my guitar playing, stemming from training completely apart from the guitar. I believe that, althoug hflamenco has many aspects that are different from western music, it is still primarily based on it, and this kind of foundational training thus influences it. How do you memorize thousands of notes if you do not have a framework in which to place them? A lot of Bach changes chords every note. But you don't memorize every note--you learn chords, then you learn chord progressions, then you learn sequences of chord progressions. You learn and become familiar with the mechanics and logic of music. My friend Alan, a violinist, can hear any melody and play it instantly. I believe this sort of ability stems from the development of his ear, which this sort of training does quite well. And this is helpfulf or any western music, including flamenco.


So it has been very helpful for me, this "book learning".
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2005 14:59:17
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