RE: The soundport thread

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estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

The soundport works better when shifted towards the neck rather then the higher up on the rib. I've found that for the guitars I make that after about 1- 1/2' in diameter you don't get any thing extra.

I did extensive experiments on one guitar and opened up the whole upper bout area little by little. I ruined the guitar in the process. I also did brace shaving a top thinning experiments on the same guitar in relation to the sound port work. The guitar became a sacrificial lamb and it's hanging on my wall to remind me to never do any of that again. But I learned about what is bunk information and what is not vis a vis soundports.

I make the face sound hole 1/8" smaller in diameter for ever inch of soundport mas o menos. And I'm can say if you make bigger sound ports thinking you're really doing something, you're just making the guitar inefficient.

If you stick with diameters between 1" and 1-3/4" and keep the sound port close the the root of the neck you'll be in the right area. For most flamenco models Santos derived etc. making the sound hole on the face 3 -3/8" or a slightly less seems to help when you open up another hole in the guitar.

The port changes the way the air moves in the guitar and I feel like making the guitar "tighter" is better. If the guitar moves a lot of air through the main soundhole and it feel like the breathing is constricted, then opening up the port naturally relives that pressure. Then the port is really doing something. But remember moving air mass and is not what makes sound, it's a by product.

Moving air is not sound wave. Well then what is sound wave? What makes the sound? Bill Clinton would have said it this way: "It's the strings stupid."

Anyway I have too much work to do, I'm going to check out of the foro for a few days or longer. I'll update my tambura thread as it happens. If anyone wants to chat for any reason just email me via foro or website.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 4 2011 18:55:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Jim Kirby

I´m not the type of builder writing everything down. I keep it in my head. And I actually remember it. The only things I write down are comments on soundboards, stiffness, weight taptone. Thats because there are so many factors that my head cant follow.

With respect of soundports, I´ve made some 15 - 20. My conclusions are the same as Stephens. At the moment I place the center of the port some 10 - 11cm from the heel and I´ve made it upto 15cm which I found to be to dominant. I prefer something like 30 - 35mm for a plain hole.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2011 8:15:33

kozz

Posts: 1766
Joined: Feb. 26 2009
From: Eindhoven NL

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

My experience started a few years ago.
I drilled a hole myself into the Juan Hernandez, just to see what it would do.
Immediately I was enthusiastic, although aesthetically it was a little bit getting used to it.
Soundwise it was much prettier to listen, and prevented me from leaning forwards to hear the guitar when played softly.

2ndly I did the Alhambra 3F, due to a mistake I had to make the hole a lot bigger.
Personally I like it sometimes on this guitar just for the sound of it, but it is too big. It feels too much inside the guitar.

The 3rd one is the one Anders made me. It just looks beautiful this way, and it does what it should do, give more clearance to the player.

I think sound ports can help also on improvement of sound and projection.
The sound port can relief some wave density in the soundbox wich might improve soundboard vibrations.
Just a thought.

A big sound port fan anyway!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2011 11:08:53

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Huge soundports make you go wow at first from the shear volume hitting your face but they're like IQ deprived supermodels, unliveable longterm

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 5 2011 17:49:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

My own experience was that I actually am of the few that DOESN'T like hearing the guitar from inside while I am playing. Ruck's guitar was the first I experimented with and felt the added sound hitting my face when playing gave a nasal quality rather then a focused mid range quality when plugged, and this affected my playing i a way my right hand goes searching for a better "sweet spot". It was just better for me with the holes plugged. A year later Nuñez was using a new Ruck guitar and ALWAYS had the ports plugged so he must have felt the same as me.

Jason's vid shows that it is an aural illusion that the sound changes and only from the player's perspective. But I feel I personally don't like that nasal sound that causes me to search for a better playing spot in vain.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2011 15:35:03

Anders Eliasson

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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Have you tried other guitars with soundports? Maybe its a characteristic of Rucks guitars... Its not something I´ve experienced.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 6 2011 15:51:31

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Have you tried other guitars with soundports? Maybe its a characteristic of Rucks guitars... Its not something I´ve experienced.

not really any in the same calibur. I mean his negra was REALLY good....so long as those holes were plugged. His blanca was not as good IMO, plugged or unplugged.

One of my Conde's has a pick up, so when the battery door is open it is sort of like a sound port. Don't notice much difference except a touch more bass. I am not a big fan of extra bass in my face.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2011 5:30:15

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Ricardo

The reason I ask is that you wrote on thread where I made a video of a Blanca and a Negra, where the blanca has a port and the negra doesnt have one:

"Nice. Both guitars have the same voice pretty much. The only thing I can tell is the negra has more bass, but only when you actually are playing on the basses. The mids are strong and clear on both guitars. Nice work anders."

When I play the two guitars there´s no real difference exept the volume I get as a player. And also not much diference when I plugged the port of the blanca. Maybe the blanca with its port open has a little bit more bass. But very little. At least something that I dont mind. I think that size and placement has a lot to do with what you get out of the port and especially, I dont like when the port gets to big. IMO, it should not be the only source of input from the guitar. I prefer when you can hear the top and what comes out of the soundhole as well. Big ports have this wow effect but like with other wow effects, it easily loses its quality and becomes something annoying. A weird comparison is that a friend of mine had a Honda motorbike with a turbo. WOW. the turbo entered at around 2500 rpm. REally wow and really annoying when you just drove around trying to relax and enjoy the landscape.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2011 7:22:43

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

The reason I ask is that you wrote on thread where I made a video of a Blanca and a Negra, where the blanca has a port and the negra doesnt have one:

Right. Same voice from the camera point of view, but the rosewood has more bass in the basses themselves, that was all. I actually prefer blancas generally for this reason....and hence if you get more bass with a soundport, again maybe that is why I don't like em so much. Regarding size, Rucks ports were pretty small compared to some pics I have seen in this thread. More like the Juan Hernandez above then the other two examples there. Maybe the smaller hole gave it that nasal quality? Don't know, but it was for sure not the focused sound I prefered when it was plugged up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2011 9:23:26

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

I have limited experience with ports, but is somewhat in line with what Ricardo is saying. I added a small port on my Raphael Romero negra. It was set fairly high on the upper bout. I got the unwanted extra bass boom as well. Like Ricardo said, it was only bassy when you played the basses. Other than that, I liked it.

I played a Peter Tsiorba negra that had a medium sized port set close to the neck. I liked it and it didn’t have the extra bass issue.

Hard to make any conclusions from this, but I believe the port needs to be closer to the neck. The small port may have something to do with the bass issue as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2011 16:50:08

Waldo

Posts: 12
Joined: Mar. 20 2011

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Hiya all from a newbie. The only thing that bothers me is if I buy a guitar with a soundport and they prove to be a passing fad, this could ruin its re-sale value. Do you all think soundports are here to stay?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2011 19:10:07

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

What do we know is here to stay? The world, the human race, McDonalds etc. Just look at what has happened to the world the last 100 years.
I will continue playing guitars with soundports.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2011 8:00:23

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Waldo)

quote:

The only thing that bothers me is if I buy a guitar with a soundport and they prove to be a passing fad, this could ruin its re-sale value. Do you all think soundports are here to stay?

They are probably here to stay. But, a soundport will probably reduce the resale value of your guitar because a lot of people don't want them.

Its easy to make a hole in a guitar, not so easy to remove it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 8 2011 8:39:44

MarkMc

Posts: 121
Joined: Oct. 1 2005
From: Wilsonville, Oregon

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I have limited experience with ports, but is somewhat in line with what Ricardo is saying. I added a small port on my Raphael Romero negra. It was set fairly high on the upper bout. I got the unwanted extra bass boom as well. Like Ricardo said, it was only bassy when you played the basses. Other than that, I liked it.

I played a Peter Tsiorba negra that had a medium sized port set close to the neck. I liked it and it didn’t have the extra bass issue.

Hard to make any conclusions from this, but I believe the port needs to be closer to the neck. The small port may have something to do with the bass issue as well.

Hello,

I now have the Raphael Romero because Pat is graciously allowing me purchase to it from him. Thank You Pat!

It’s a beautiful guitar with the sound port plugged or unplugged. Overall, I like the sound port. The port is roughly 1 ¼” wide. And as Pat said, it’s set maybe a little high on the bout, but not too high in my opinion because I've seen higher ones. I agree about the extra boom when playing the basses. However, the trebles sound great too. The port doesn’t over-power the main sound hole; it seems pretty balanced and stereo in that regard. I’m not sure if making the port ‘bigger’ would help with the bass boom or not. And if so, how much bigger?

I did partially cover the sound port a little at a time and it ‘seems’ to help with the boom.

Anders,

Do you notice a difference in sound with your sound ports that are partially covered or open all the way?
Because I could always ask lsnyman to see if he could make a nice cover that would partially close off the port:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=169246&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=shut&tmode=&smode=&s=#175529

Or at least make a nice looking cover/plug.

Regards,
Mark

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2011 15:46:57

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to krichards)

quote:

They are probably here to stay. But, a soundport will probably reduce the resale value of your guitar because a lot of people don't want them.

Or the contrary, it might make a guitar more valuable because the guy who wants one will not have to risk changing a guitar without out one if he wants one.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2011 16:57:14

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to MarkMc)

quote:

Anders,

Do you notice a difference in sound with your sound ports that are partially covered or open all the way?
Because I could always ask lsnyman to see if he could make a nice cover that would partially close off the port:

Yes and no or lets say that I´m not to sure about the diferences. The inlayed soundport I make bigger, so that the total area should be the same.

With respect of money and resale value... I dont think anyone can say anything intelligent about that. Look at how the rest of the world funcions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2011 8:53:05

rufred

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun. 5 2009
From: Germany

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hello everyone,
I must say I always thought that I never will make a ``hole `` in one of my guitars, because Guitars worked for hundreds of years without that.
Finally I gave it a try now. I took my oldest Guitar ( made 2007 ) and made a hole in it.
The result was very surprising to me, the guitar sounds so much better now ( I agree very much with Florian,the guitar feels more alive, I can feel more vibrations ..etc. )
I even feel as a better guitarplayer now ( which is not the case of course ) because of the much more vibrating guitar ( is this what you call ``pulsation``, Anders ? )
So I ´ll make soundports in my other guitar soon, but I´m looking for a different design,
because the one I´ve made looks a little bit girlielike to me ( my spouse says it looks like a
YMCA guitar now ) what do you guys think?

Greetings from Germany to all of you

Manfred

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2011 14:46:53

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Manfred.. I´m glad your happy with your soundport. I think you did a great job with the port itself. Designwise its very big and so it dominates a lot. But thats just my taste and if you like what you get out of it, then its great.

The more vibrating guitar is not what is called pulsation here in Spain. Pulsation, is more about the stiffness of the guitar and the way it acts when you play it. But thats a totally different topic.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 10 2011 16:51:44

Anders Eliasson

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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Happy new year

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 9:03:08

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

The fact that I here show 3 soundports doesnt mean that I only build guitars with soundports. This is the first time I´ve built a batch of 3 guitars all with inlayed soundports. I think some 50% of the guitars that I build now are without soundports.
Not a problem. I dont consider soundports to be that importent. I prefer a ported guitar myself, but a good guitar is a good guitar with or without a soundport.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 9:06:17

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

For those of you who frequent the acguitar forum you probably know of Al Carruth. Mr. Carruth is a luthier who lives in New Hampshire and has done quite a bit of research into things like ports, fine tuning, etc. I actually had him do some fine adjustments on a Conde I once owned--since sold to buy a 66 Ramirez. Here are links to topics he has done research on and then written about.

Ports:
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/sidePorts.pdf

Fine Tuning:
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/Acoustic1.pdf

Strings:
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com/Downloads/stringTheory.pdf

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 13:28:38

Tomrocker

Posts: 404
Joined: Apr. 18 2010
From: Italy

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

Very interesting articles. Thanks for sharing and Happy new year Andres:)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 16:01:20

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to keith)

Anyone know if you can buy soundports on-line and just fit them yourself?

cheers,

Ron

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 16:17:07

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

I can let you have one cheap, only slightly pre used and complete with installation instructions--------only $100

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 1 2012 19:34:11

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)

I read Al´s article on soundports some years ago and I´ve just forced myself to reread it. I say forced, because its a heavy read and extremely theoretical. We are all different and this Al´s way of working. I dont work like that and all the builders that I know here in Spain, and this includes past ones, dont work like that either. (make your own conclusions)

But nevermind.. All roads lead to Rome. The most interesting part is the last couple of pages, the conclusion... There´s not much difference in what he says and my own conclusion based on 15+ guitars with soundports (I dont know how many Al has build with ports) ONE thing though, that he misses and it is THE most important reason that I as a player prefer guitars with soundports, is the stereo effect, the surround sound that a port creates. That makes me relax and simply play more. Thats also why I personally dont like very big ports. The "wow" efect is to dominant and ends up being annoying after a while also because what comes out of the port is not the same as what comes out of the soundhole, and I want to be able to hear that as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2012 8:31:40

Mohan

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From: Dunstable, England

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

...because what comes out of the port is not the same as what comes out of the soundhole...

Thanks Anders - finally the answer that I have been looking and asking for for the last year or so. My hope for the soundport was that it would give the player access to the same sound that the listeners get. It would seem not... Oh well, back to the drawing board

Happy New Year everyone!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2012 10:25:31

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Mohan)

Why is it so important that what comes out of the port is the same as what comes out of the soundhole?
When playing a guitar without a soundport, you sit behind the main output of sound and what you hear is not the same as you would hear if you could sit in front of the guitar while you played. In fact its very different. so here you´ll be in the same situation with or without a soundport. Try making 2 recordings of a guitar without a port. 1 in front of the soundhole and one where your ear is...

There are some diferences in what you get as a player with and without a soundport, but that diference is very small compared to the sound comming out of the soundhole and which you´ll never hear unless you devellop a very long neck or a completely new sitting positions. My own observations is that with a soundport you get a sound closer to what you hear from the soundhole.

There are no cheap or fast conclusions in building instruments. Unfortunately this forum is full of members looking for cheap or fast conclusions on whatever subject. Life is complex and so is art and a guitar is an instrument made to produce art and as a such a complex thing to build.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2012 11:02:57

Richard Jernigan

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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

When playing a guitar without a soundport, you sit behind the main output of sound and what you hear is not the same as you would hear if you could sit in front of the guitar while you played. In fact its very different.

Indeed. I had only had my best classical for a year when I left my tiny island in the Pacific for six months to live in Honolulu, due to work. I had begun to think the third string was just a bit weak. I even tried the composite third string made by D'Addario, but didn't like it.

The condo where I lived for six months had a glass wall separating the living room from the balcony. The living room was fair sized. I sat about 18 feet (5.5 meters) from the glass wall, and began to play. Once I recovered from the shock of hearing the guitar's sound reflected from the glass wall, I realized that to the listener, the normal third string was perfectly balanced with the rest.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 2 2012 18:56:59