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The soundport thread
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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 RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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A very interesting thread , Although not so good for Mr Blackshear who you really invite to defend himself here...however.
I was considering putting a sound port in an old guitar I have and am experimenting with , or will be next year,
I also was wondering about optimum size and placement of the sound port.
I think that it is purely for the player , so the sound comes striaght out of the guitar into your ear, and not out the front and reflected back ,
This is a bit like the opposite of those Ovation guitars with the round fiber backs (steel string , remember thoses?) well I had one years a go and that design was for the projection of sound to the listener , but not really for the player at all.
So I feel that , in theory , the sound port is for the player but will have little or no effect for the listener.
However for the player it should increase volume , I dont know what effect size has , perhaps it lets more of the lower frequencies through.
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Date Dec. 3 2011 13:32:31
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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my experience with soundports was with a cheap factory. but still, i got a general idea of the effects of soundports.
as far as i or anyone else could tell, there was no discernible difference in front of the guitar.
from the player's perspective, there was more bass. and the trebles had a bit more "fullness" to them. and slightly more volume overall. but this was with a guitar that already lacked bass.
when i got a navarro, the bass was already strong, the guitar was loud (to the point where i couldn't hear others sometimes), and i was already low on funds so i didn't feel like putting in soundports.
during loud gigs, i often have a hard time hearing myself. maybe a soundport would help but i feel like it wouldn't be enough. and the issue is that most of the times, i can hear the basses fine, but it's the highs that dont reach my ears.
i already posted this link before but i'll post it again because i think it really captured what i heard from the soundports:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=114322&appid=&p=1&mpage=1&key=&tmode=1&smode=1&s=#114327
i wasn't hesitant to drill a hole into my cheap guitar. and the effects were positive with that guitar.
but i just wouldn't know what it would do to my new guitar. would there be too much bass? too much volume?
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Date Dec. 3 2011 14:24:37
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Don Dionisio)
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quote:
I would be curious as to feedback (from using a microphone) in a
live situation. Does the extra hole cause the guitar to produce more
feedback?
if u mean feedback as in that nasty noise u get in live situation from wrong placement of the speakers and mic than the answer is no, it dosent change any of that
I love the sound port still, i cant really remember what its like without cause its been a while ( i am proud to say i after, Jason, Grisha, Anders, i think i was atleast the 4th or 5th one here to get one, defenetly first in flamenco in Australia) the statement that it makes a good guitar better is true, makes any guitar better than what it already was..in my experience (to you !)..i was so excited i remember sharing with everyone and convincing a few people to get em
the volume perhaps wont be louder ...or maybe it is or gives that precption (to you)...i dont know... but the sound is more stereo, coming at you from 2 directions and most importantly to me......it makes your guitar fell more alive, more responsive, more vibrating in your hands, u feel the vibration of every note in the body of the guitar...i love it when a guitar does that!!!..
i hate it when u play a note and besides sound there's absolutely nothing else...cant feel anything in the body...
one thing i know for sure...there's nothing negative about a soundport, dosent detract anything out of what u already had weather u feel the difference or not( which u will, its hard not too, i remember first time i played it after putting the soundport in, it was like wow) .....
the only downside is...the hole in you guitar...its a big commitment, i get that...do i want a hole in my guitar....is it worth it for me for the possibility that it might sound better...do i wanna sell this after......everyone has to decide for themselves, for me absolutely, best thing i ever did, i got this thing to play it...not to sell after...if a little hole can increase my experience by even just a couple of nudges ( and to me it does...by alot more then just a couple) ...why the hell not
quote:
I can imagine soundports being a advantage to players who play for themselves in the livingroom mostly
it works in everything...i enjoy it especially in dance classes, i play unamplified over 20 or 30 dancers at one time...rehearsals etc...
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Date Dec. 3 2011 20:04:25
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I cut a pasted this from that Infamous thread. ...Basically I say this:
The first one I made with a sound part was in 2007. It was a happy accident. The rib cracked in the exact spot where you would put the soundport, so I cut out the crack and re enforced the sides behind it. I've never looked back about making them with soundports. Antonio Moya and Jason played that guitar an loved it, that clinched it for me.
They give the player more of the sound that is out front of the guitar. When you are behind the guitar you can't hear it the same way a person 5 feet in front hears it.
Soundports don't always give a mass volume increase in every guitar. I have noticed it can change the volume and I have made a few REALLY loud guitars with soundports. In fact Brian Moran's is so loud I'm waiting for him to sue me for hearing damage.
Sound ports don't always change the projection of the guitar. I also think that the guitar has to be good first without the soundport in order for the port to do anything to make the guitar respond to the port. A bad guitar is a bad guitar with or without a port.
Essentially I use the port in the guitar for the player to hear more of the overtones in the guitar and to give the player a richer more complex sound under the ear. The by products are some increase in overall sound and also a kind of openness to the way the harmonics are heard in front of the guitar.
Some players have noted it is easy to get seduced by the sound under your ear, and that they have to work harder to keep vigilant about what the audience in hearing. That seems like an issue not all players would have, depending on how they play.
The sound port is not going to go away, it's an option and i moderates how the guitar sounds. If we can keep working with it and its done right it does add a positive element to the guitar. It's not an either or proposition as in all against or all for the sound port. I hope guitarists learn that it is not a panecea or cure all, a sound port will not make bad guitar turn into a great guitar. But on the other hand a sound port will enhance certain qualities on the guitar.
Like anything else you design into a guitar it has variables depending on the wood the guitar is made of, the main air resonance of the top, the size and placement of the sound port in relation to the size of the front sound hole. Where you place the Soundport has a relationship with how air moves though the instrument. Even the people who study guitar acoustics have not figured it all out yet.
Jason once had a very good in sight on the sound port: He said think of a bamboo flute. If blow through it before you put the first hole in it, the column of air in the flute makes a lower pitch. When you drill the first hole and blow through it again the pitch rises. You changed the air column in the flute. When you think about a guitar and an extra hole you're changing the air column in the guitar, you have to get it in the right place at the right diameter to make the guitar play at it's optimum with that extra hole.
Lucky for us non immortal guitar makers the Gods of Guitar Making have experimented enough before us to give us some rough guidelines to use and work with. And I agree with Anders you can make a hole in the guitar later, but a god guitar will pretty much be a good guitar and great guitar will pretty much be great guitar, but it will have that extra presence of harmonics that comes with the soundport concept. To me the sound port does not radically change the character of the guitar, it just accentuates certain parts of that character more.
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Date Dec. 3 2011 21:10:47
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I have only one guitar with a sound port (Stephen's 7 string), and a bunch without, but there's no denying that the sound port works in terms of getting more sound to the player's ear.
And I can say that I've played 2 of Stephen's guitar with larger ports, and 1 with a smaller port, and the size of the port is directly proportional to the volume. Location too. in fact, the one with smaller port seems to have a very subtle effect, while my guitar with the big port sound super loud when you sit and play it.
I also think that while yes you hear more of the guitar (overtones, harmonics, etc), the port is most useful in loud situations, and those details of the sound of the guitar are lost anyway.
And when everything is quiet and controlled, you can hear the overtones of any good guitar just fine - with or without a port. Plus, when everything is quiet, there are innumerable variables that contribute to one's perception of the sound: room size, room and floor materials, acoustical things... so that's always a variable, and I don't think the port is at its most helpful.
I'm of the opinion that beyond anything, it's an amplifier for the sound for the player. And as Anders says, in "real" playing situations (audience talking, loud percussionists, etc), the extra volume from the port works. And in those situations, I think it's reasonable to expect that the port experience is about volume and little else. And that's what you need more than anything else. Who plays well when you can hardly hear yourself? Getting blisters as you hammer on the strings just to be heard?
So in summation, if you're the type of player who plays in front of polite and quiet audiences, a port is cool, but won't revolutionize your playing experience. But if in the trenches, playing amidst the chaos, the sound port is your best friend.
Anyway, that's my 2c.
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Date Dec. 4 2011 6:46:21
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odinz
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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I have only positive opinions on the soundport....
It is great in noisy places but, I think personally it also helps me fall into the music easier, I feel like I just float inside the music, surrounded by an ocean of sound.
I have not sensed that so completely before I got this blanca with a soundport.
I guess that is the stereo effect many talk about..
But there is something very special there for me, like there is a barrier between the player and the guitar that has become torn down, so I atleast feel more able to communicate with my instrument anywhere, not just noisy places and such.
Many people also seem to be worried about the look of the guitar with a hole in it, I like how you did it Anders, with the ornamentation, also the newer design with the dark circle around the hole looksway more appealing to me than just a hole.
About the placement, I think the way you places the soundport on my guitar was good, I dont really know any others though... But placing it so that it sits on the left side when you play makes sense,as that creates this stereo effect, but then there is also the posibility of the sweet spot for it, for example someone playing in a classical position might want the hole more closer to the heel than someone playing with the guitar completely horizontaly , I dont really know if that matters though.
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Date Dec. 4 2011 8:12:50
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rogeliocan
Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada
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RE: The soundport thread (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
The first one I made with a sound part was in 2007. It was a happy accident. The rib cracked in the exact spot where you would put the soundport, so I cut out the crack and re enforced the sides behind it. I've never looked back about making them with soundports. Antonio Moya and Jason played that guitar an loved it, that clinched it for me.
They give the player more of the sound that is out front of the guitar. When you are behind the guitar you can't hear it the same way a person 5 feet in front hears it.
Soundports don't always give a mass volume increase in every guitar. I have noticed it can change the volume and I have made a few REALLY loud guitars with soundports. In fact Brian Moran's is so loud I'm waiting for him to sue me for hearing damage.
Sound ports don't always change the projection of the guitar. I also think that the guitar has to be good first without the soundport in order for the port to do anything to make the guitar respond to the port. A bad guitar is a bad guitar with or without a port.
Essentially I use the port in the guitar for the player to hear more of the overtones in the guitar and to give the player a richer more complex sound under the ear. The by products are some increase in overall sound and also a kind of openness to the way the harmonics are heard in front of the guitar.
Some players have noted it is easy to get seduced by the sound under your ear, and that they have to work harder to keep vigilant about what the audience in hearing. That seems like an issue not all players would have, depending on how they play.
These are good comments.
I think there is a lot of personal judgement on the preferences of people. And what would be interesting is to know what results in what. What I mean by that is that, on the same guitar, what happens to the sound when you change or/and move the port?
What does it change to the player, and what does it change to the audience.
Does it change the actual sound, or does it change only volume? same for both listeners?
So you luthiers can do tests, would it be possible to build a guitar and have the whole top side just built with an empty frame, that is, a normal side where you have cut most of the middle of it, so the piece would look like kind of a ladder but with less bars. Then you could cover it up changing the hole as much as you want on the same guitar....
I wonder if you would come up with: when it is at x cm, it does this, at y cm it does that (for the player..... for the listener).
I take it that because all sound holes are in the front, the results are mostly aimed at the player.
Finally, doesn't a port reduce what comes out from the front? As the sound now has 2 exits it gets separated, some now goes out the side instead of the front. The player hears more but the audience hears less. To me, this would be a negative side effect.
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Date Dec. 4 2011 12:39:20
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After leaving the store that day I called it 'The most pleasurable playing experience of my life'. So IOW I am a keener on the idea of side sound ports. But the question remains is how a side port can effect the overall character of the instrument. It's tough to quantify this stuff methinks!
