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What happened to the "traditional" flamenco hold?
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britguy
Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada
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 What happened to the "tradition...
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Having been out of the flamenco groove for a few years (maybe 30 or so) I 've noticed a few changes, when browsing the Internet.
One of them that strikes me is how few players seem to prefer using the 'traditional' flamenco hold any more; i.e. high on the chest, lower bout resting on right thigh, etc. I was taught this way in Madrid many years ago, and I still find it the most comfortable and 'playable', especially for playing rasguedos. To me its the most natural way to hold a guitar, and you can feel the vibrations going right through the chest. Great feeling!
So many players I see on the Net recently use the 'right ankle cocked over the left knee' position, which I find somewhat awkward. Others use footstools or some variation of the standard classical guitar hold.
Why is the traditional high hold out of favour these days?
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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
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Date Nov. 29 2011 15:18:59
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: What happened to the "tradi... (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
I think everyone else may missing the point.
The traditional position is only comfortable for short people....
I'm 6' 4" (1.93m). As was taught in a previous geological era, I play in the traditional position. But I put a footstool in its lowest position under my right foot. In its lowest position the footstool doesn't twist the spine.
The footstool elevates the right leg just a bit, and brings the guitar up to where the right upper arm is horizontal, as it was for short people like Sabicas, Niño Ricardo, et al. With only the weight of the arm holding the guitar, no muscular tension whatsoever, the instrument is quite stable. The left hand plays no role at all in supporting the guitar--it's free to roam where it will. There is no problem playing in higher left hand positions. It didn't seem to bother Sabicas' playing in the upper registers..
Late in his career Sabicas used a footstool under the left foot, set pretty high. It looks like the standard classical position. But if you look carefully you will see that the lower bout is resting on his right thigh instead of between the legs, and the guitar seldom or never touches the left thigh! It's the traditional position, but with a footstool. I never saw him play this way in the late '50s-early '60s when I saw him regularly at various venues and juergas in New York. He always had both feet firmly on the floor.
It was explained to me that the traditional position affords more mobility to follow the movements of a dancer. I wouldn't know, because the bent left wrist of the modern position is uncomfortable to me, so I haven't seriously tried to adopt it.
I play classical in the Segovia/Llobet/Tarrega position, but with a large Dynarette cushion on the left thigh instead of a footstool under the left foot.
RNJ
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Date Nov. 29 2011 19:53:41
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Rmn
Posts: 308
Joined: May 14 2011
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RE: What happened to the "tradi... (in reply to britguy)
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I have an other theory for this analysis:
when you sit in the traditional position you have to hold back the guitar with your right upper arm. Otherwise it 'll fall to the left.
Now a lot of people raise this arm (elbow and arm) when doing picados on the bass strings. This is to maintain the position of the hand for fast picados. If you are sitting in traditional modus when you raise your right arm when doing bass string picados then there is no pressure on the guitar body anymore to hold it in it's place. for that, you have to support the guitar, from falling to the left, with your left hand (for example I noticed rafael cortes in the few movies that i have seen of him on youtube, that when he does picados on the bass strings he supports the guitar with his left hand. for what i ve seen, he plays picados mostly in one region, so that the left hand doesn't have to move, because it is supporting the neck of the guitar).
So in order to do picados all over the neck it works better if your left hand and right arm are free to move (left hand: free to move left and right up and down the neck, right arm: move up and down vertically when playing picado on the bass string to maintain the handposition for speed and even sound).
That is what I think crossed legs position is done widely in the first place; you place the guitar higher without geeky holders and to obtain the freedom of left hand and right arm.
This theory I came up with today after buying a geeky holder myself. I thought deeply about positions and remembered this topic.
Any way, I will continue playing without the holder. it's ****. has a cool name though: Gitano 
by the way, sabicas used to curve his wrist while doing picado on bass strings. i find that quite painful. must be bad for the wrist and the nerve
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Date Dec. 24 2011 14:13:37
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rombsix
Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: What happened to the "tradi... (in reply to Rmn)
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quote:
I have an other theory for this analysis:
when you sit in the traditional position you have to hold back the guitar with your right upper arm. Otherwise it 'll fall to the left.
Now a lot of people raise this arm (elbow and arm) when doing picados on the bass strings. This is to maintain the position of the hand for fast picados. If you are sitting in traditional modus when you raise your right arm when doing bass string picados then there is no pressure on the guitar body anymore to hold it in it's place. for that, you have to support the guitar, from falling to the left, with your left hand (for example I noticed rafael cortes in the few movies that i have seen of him on youtube, that when he does picados on the bass strings he supports the guitar with his left hand. for what i ve seen, he plays picados mostly in one region, so that the left hand doesn't have to move, because it is supporting the neck of the guitar).
So in order to do picados all over the neck it works better if your left hand and right arm are free to move (left hand: free to move left and right up and down the neck, right arm: move up and down vertically when playing picado on the bass string to maintain the handposition for speed and even sound).
That is what I think crossed legs position is done widely in the first place; you place the guitar higher without geeky holders and to obtain the freedom of left hand and right arm.
This theory I came up with today after buying a geeky holder myself. I thought deeply about positions and remembered this topic.
Any way, I will continue playing without the holder. it's ****. has a cool name though: Gitano
by the way, sabicas used to curve his wrist while doing picado on bass strings. i find that quite painful. must be bad for the wrist and the nerve
I agree 100%. My plan is to experiment with Anders' rubber sheet that you put on your right leg. Will see if that works...
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Dec. 24 2011 16:16:44
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: What happened to the "tradi... (in reply to Guest)
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quote:
Hi. Paco expresses his view in one of the most recent documentaries on him. I forget which one.
He says that there were a limited number of chords used when that position was popular, probably none past the third position. It was therefore easier to hold the guitar up in that position.
However, Paco's falsetas (AND OTHERS) became increasingly complex with a greater use of the fretboard and many more chords as well as florid left-hand techniques. It is impossible to play many modern falsetas in that position and Paco adjusted. Many followed suit and here we are.
Paco might have said that, but that doesn't make it true.
Many guitarists of the past, Nino Ricardo for one, Pepe Martinez, Mario Escudero for most of his career, Serranito in his earlier career, and others, played in the traditional position, and they were hardly restricting themselves to "no chords past the third position."
As for "complex falsetas" being "impossible" in that position, Nino Ricardos's falsetas were plenty complex, and all over the fingerboard, and I think it's safe to say that were he alive he would easily play any modern falseta in the traditional position. The same for the others cited above, all of whom played complex falsetas, and were fully able to play any modern day falseta.
And obviously the same could be said for Sabicas, who earlier in his career used the traditional position. I don't think anyone would want to argue that Sabicas would have not been able play any falseta, however complex, in the traditional position.
There are also more modern day guitarists - Rafael Cortes comes to mind - still using the traditional position and playing complex falsetas.
So the idea that modern falsetas are impossible to play in the tradtional position doesn't seem tenable.
Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Dec. 24 2011 22:25:48
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