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My 5 piece bracing system
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: My 5 piece bracing system (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
Instead he rests the upper arm on the bout.
Which is not ergonomical, as it levers your hand away / requesting active position retain at the soundboard ( encreased pulling-up efforts of the lower arm).
Resting the upper arm aids relaxation of the shoulder, but unfortunately counteracts RH poise simultaneously. - And should effect blood circulation still, as the main vessels do run through the inner side of the upper arm.
It´s Anders´otherwise economical technique that allows him introducing such a roundabout without significant obstruction.
It doesn´t mean however that he couldn´t be gaining even more seamlessness if he rested his lower arm near the ellbow at the spot you mentioned.
- And implemented an arm bevel to comfort it.
BTW, how about those, Anders. Have you considered possible implementation of bevels, yet?
Ruphus
Next time I talk to Paco, I'll pass along your tip. He'll be glad to know what's been holding him back all these years. 
And have you noticed what a mess Paco's picado is? He picks his whole arm up off the guitar! What a shame, when he could be doing so much better.
Seriously, resting the inner upper arm on the side of the guitar does not interfere with blood circulation or nerve function. The area of contact is large enough that the pressure is reduced below a harmful level. At least it has been for the fifty or so years I've been doing it...
Quite a few, perhaps most classical players play the way you describe. I find I tend in that direction when I play classical, but I keep the upper side of the guitar tilted back a bit to reduce the pressure on the forearm.
Quite a few, perhaps most flamenco players play the way I describe, including many of the great virtuosi. I can get quite a flamenco sound out of my Romanillos with the right hand technique I describe, though the rasgueados aren't as crisp as on my flamenco guitars, nor is the sound as brilliant nor quite as solid as on my Arcangel. Of course the Arcangel has nowhere near the range of tone qualities as the Romanillos played classical style.
RNJ
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Date Sep. 14 2011 4:27:49
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: My 5 piece bracing system (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
I've had the same thing with the cello. Some teachers are stinkers about the bow and others make a comment now and then. Everyones hand and arm length is different.
Yes and no. If the instrument is too small in relation to the players body size: yes; if about relation of extremeties in regard to each other: commonly no.
Just envision the three limbs, upper arm, lower arm, hand, slack dangling down from the shoulder joint.
Now imagine how to position them optimally as to have the hand placed at string hight with the least active ( extra ) effort. Taking into consideration suspenses and leverings there remains only one ergonomical way.
Iznaola states that you want your hand to be pending, and rather "fall" into the strings ( be there from get go / "The hare and the hedgehog" principle ), not levered away ( taking "eagle swoop" planting, as I´d call it ), and who actually cared to explore on this, will realize its physiological benefits.
I have seen it happen with old hands after only a ~ 20 minute introduction, with them coming back to me elated after only a couple of days of new practice.
I mean, just don´t repell news from the get go without conscious trying first. But if you chose to reject still, again, certainly no offence taken by me.
What the bow is concerned, I have no special insights, but observed this:
When its is about economicallly efficient lifting of the arm, an ellbow kept close to the torso will do. ( Correspondingly adviced for posture at painting, for motor bike riding, etc.)
Whereas when it is about brief precision a high ellbow can be handy ( like in chemical laboratories where learners are instructed to raise the ellbow while filling test tubes ).
Anyway, I am not trying to contribute on ergonomics for to annoy anyone about his habits, but to spread practical bits for those who seek them.
( And no: For there being virtuousos who overcome counter productive posture, it won´t mean such to be in the same time what one should mimic for optimal application [ least efforts]. After all it could be why we don´t see rational conservatories teaching a Glen Gould or Luis Armstrong technique, despite the unquestionable results these artists achieved).
Richard,
Agreed, a pointy leverage will excert more pressure on vessels than a plain one. What I meant is that you can have your hand get numb from upper arm resting too, as I remember from lengthy acoustic guitar sessions, when I used to rest the upper arm on the bout.
Ruphus
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Date Sep. 14 2011 16:47:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: My 5 piece bracing system (in reply to Ruphus)
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Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar contributes positively to the modern ideal of classical technique, playing everything from the same right hand position. Exceptions are moving along the length of the strings to modify tone quality, damping the strings with the right side of the palm in pizzicato, and slight alterations in the angle of attack of the fingers.
In 20th century flamenco technique, the right hand is far more mobile. Alzapua and abanico both involve significant rotation of the forearm. "Abanico" specifically refers to the rotation of the forearm at the elbow when using a fan. Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar inhibits rotation of the forearm at the elbow.
Resting the upper arm on the side of the guitar can result in numbness through at least a couple of mechanisms. One is through pressing against the edge where the top joins the side. Another is through exerting too much force. The guitar can be held quite firmly in the traditional position, lower bout against the right thigh, upper bout above but not touching the left thigh, through only the weight of the upper arm laid along the side, without any muscular force whatsoever.
Paco's position, now almost uniformly adopted by flamenco players, rests the waist of the guitar on the right thigh and lays the upper arm along the side, also without muscular force.
Now we've hijacked the thread. Sorry, Anders.
RNJ
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Date Sep. 14 2011 18:13:24
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: My 5 piece bracing system (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Now we've hijacked the thread. Sorry, Anders.
Yes, but I guess he won´t mind, as him being just as much a player as a luthier. ( Admirable besides how well he managed to cover both in the same time!)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar contributes positively to the modern ideal of classical technique, playing everything from the same right hand position. Exceptions are moving along the length of the strings to modify tone quality, damping the strings with the right side of the palm in pizzicato, and slight alterations in the angle of attack of the fingers.
Well observed!
However, ergonomical details have yet spread rather little, if you look around and see what hampers so many members of the community, at times throughout decades of great love and passion with practice.
Aware of how certain constructive details can change one´s path / progress so drastically, I assume a helpful potential through pointing out thelikes.
( Had been stuck myself for so many years, in the end wondering if it could be individual physics or whatever that prevented me from conquering certain technical realms; which naturally it was not. - Aside of having developed FD through wasteful approach towards speed.)
It´s all in the head.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
In 20th century flamenco technique, the right hand is far more mobile. Alzapua and abanico both involve significant rotation of the forearm. "Abanico" specifically refers to the rotation of the forearm at the elbow when using a fan. Resting the forearm on the edge of the guitar inhibits rotation of the forearm at the elbow.
Further than that, I am trying to introduce a ( counter clock-wise) forearm rotation into almost all techniques, including rasgueado and arpeggio; as it turned out to help a great deal with smooth, even and fast release, and spare heaps of miniscule motorics / neural energy. ( Even if the leading rotation be only subtle, hardly / not visible.)
For most, I do this including whirls with the forearm rested as recommended by Iznaola ( very close to the ellbow), and can´t see why you think that the rest wouldn´t allow rotation.
( Should there be need for more posts for exploring details we can open an extra thread.)
Ruphus
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Date Sep. 15 2011 13:13:58
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