Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
   
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
 RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to kudo)
|
|
|
quote:
thats the only thing I didnt really get, whats naturales? I thought Fandangos came in the name of towns, like de Huelva , de etc. ?
Fandangos from Huelva began to evolve and take on personalized characteristics by various singers (example Fandango de Gloria, or Cepero, or Manuel Torre, Caracol, etc), so aficionados started to call them fandangos personales, as each one was personalized (not necessarily from a region once you leave Huelva). Also the term fandango naturales is used, perhaps because the liberation from strict compas allows for a more free and natural expression? Yet other singers liked to think of the new styles of fandangos as more "jondo" like cante jondo of solea or siguiriyas, or cante grande vs cante chico (that is not so heavy and deep, more fun up beat songs like Buleria or alegria, tanguillos etc). So they called em "fandango grande", as opposed the "fandanguillo" which would be the little folk songs from huelva. For me that term just sounds kind of arrogant, and it seems many aficionados feel that these cantes are not "cante grande".
So you will see Fandango de Huelva, or Fandanguillo (conversely I think that term belittles the styles from huelva) used inter changeably, and more specific terms for which ever fandango it is from Huelva (example, Fandango de Alosno, or de Perez Guzman, or de Paco Toronjo etc all from Huelva).
Then you have more free style ones referred to as either fandango grande, fandango naturales, fandango personales, or simply fandango, or more specific fandango de....... who ever created the style.
These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc), since they are all based on the same structure. But it seems that even these terms are not necessarily about the region as their creators could have been from some other region. (Example, Chacon was from Jerez but created models for granaina and media granaina, or Mellizo from Cadiz has a popular malagueña etc). Sometimes the lyrics will describe the region (Alhambra, Albayzin etc), but not necessarily.
So anyway I could have called those tracks "fandangos" or "fandango grande" or "fandango personales", but I just prefer the sound of "naturales". The actual fandangos that Jesus sings are Gloria, Sevillano, Caracol, Farina, and a bit of his own style too. He calls the form "fandango grande" himself.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Sep. 2 2011 19:59:40
 |
|
NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
|
|
RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc),
No, the folkloric regional fandangos (=cantes abandolaos like verdiales, fandangos de Lucena, fandangos de Granada, jaberas, rondeña, etc.) are thought to be the origin of the cantes levantinos (=malagueñas, granaínas, cantes mineros). So the straight ternary rhythm of the cantes abandolaos is behind the cantes levantinos. Nearly all fandangos de Huelva and sevillanas share a two-part ternary rhythm (1-2-3-4-5-6), although the connection is becoming blurred with the passing of time.
Cantes abandolaos are from southeastern Spain, on the other side of the country from Huelva.
_____________________________
Be here now.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 5 2011 7:02:42
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to NormanKliman)
|
|
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: NormanKliman
quote:
These free style ones supposedly evolved into the more regional ones such as granadinas, malagueñas, cantes de la mina (taranto taranta etc),
No, the folkloric regional fandangos (=cantes abandolaos like verdiales, fandangos de Lucena, fandangos de Granada, jaberas, rondeña, etc.) are thought to be the origin of the cantes levantinos (=malagueñas, granaínas, cantes mineros). So the straight ternary rhythm of the cantes abandolaos is behind the cantes levantinos. Nearly all fandangos de Huelva and sevillanas share a two-part ternary rhythm (1-2-3-4-5-6), although the connection is becoming blurred with the passing of time.
Cantes abandolaos are from southeastern Spain, on the other side of the country from Huelva.
Makes sense, the melodic connections are obvious. I wonder if you feel the regional "free" forms evolved the same way as the fandangos naturales did, and at the same time? And then of course we ask which came first....fandango de lucena etc, or Fandango de huelva?
My personal feeling of the melodic rhythm connection was that the Huelva songs seem more structured and clearly "square" if you will (but is that the origin of form or did the songs evolve into that?) Whereas the Rondeñas, Fandango de Lucena etc always seemed more like the free cante melody loosely fitted over the 3 beat compas. Not unlike the way cante mineros are done por baile now a days. But that could be my experience through certain personal interpretaions.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 7 2011 9:00:25
|
|
NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
|
|
RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
I wonder if you feel the regional "free" forms evolved the same way as the fandangos naturales did, and at the same time? I dunno, I just repeat what I read in books, at least the stuff that stands up to a bit of analysis and experience.
Malagueñas and cantes mineros go back to the café cantante period of the 1880s or even further, depending on the references, but fandangos naturales seem to have appeared in the first decade of the 20th century. I think that's a generous enough estimate, taking into account what's on recordings and going back a bit further to allow for development over time. Antonio Chacón (b. 1869) probably didn't sing them but José Cepero (b. 1888) did. Some of the early recordings of Cepero's granaínas sound like fandangos naturales insofar as the duration of each sung line and the way the lines of verse are strung together. Granaínas don't really show up on recordings until about the same time as the fandangos naturales, from the 1920s onward.
quote:
...(but is that the origin of form or did the songs evolve into that...
quote:
But that could be my experience through certain personal interpretaions.
It's really hard to make conclusive statements. Not just our window of experience at this point in time, but also the average human lifespan and the advent of recording technology.
quote:
Whereas the Rondeñas, Fandango de Lucena etc always seemed more like the free cante melody loosely fitted over the 3 beat compas.
Yeah, I think fandangos de Huelva might be centuries old. There's been a theory around for a few decades that suggests that all of the fandango-based cantes were developed from a Moorish prototype, but, as they say in Mundo y Formas (about other cantes), "Who ever heard that?" In any case, I think the cantes abandolaos are pretty old, too. I'm sure you've seen those groups called "pandas" that play verdiales with the screechy violin and the funny hats. That must go way back in time (especially if young people today are still doing it, ha-ha). Just a guess.
_____________________________
Be here now.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 7 2011 14:59:22
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to NormanKliman)
|
|
|
quote:
Antonio Chacón (b. 1869) probably didn't sing them but José Cepero (b. 1888) did. Some of the early recordings of Cepero's granaínas sound like fandangos naturales insofar as the duration of each sung line and the way the lines of verse are strung together.
Yeah that is right, no Fandangos by Chacon. Now I think I remember reading that Fandangos naturales/grandes etc were not simply evolutions of Huelva folk songs, but were heavily influenced by Malagueñas. So it seems the Huelva style is first, then this weird Abanolao version of the same type of song but where the singers give the WRONG note for the chord (dominant 7 implied but not played), then these guys started to slow down all the different Abandolaos until you had essentially free style malagueñas that lead to Granainas and Cante de la minas styles (still with those weird wrong dominant 7th notes to the normal huelva form) at which point the actual fandangos forms started to get affect with the time stretching until they were freer and more ornate (yet with actual in-key notes for the chords  ) or were even set to more flamenco type compases such as solea, or totally free style.
Does that sound more like it?
Oh about the weird dom7th notes, here is what I mean:
In fandangos the chords are lead by the singers guide tone, usually for C you hear a C or an E or even G. Next, depending on range and style the F chord is lead by a final F or A note. Then back to C with an E note usually. Then G is given with G or B. etc.
For most all the malagueñas and Verdiales stuff the same harmonic form is used, but the guide notes are strange. For the first C sometimes an F natural is held. Next for the F chord, a Bb is held. For me these are sus 4ths or else you can think of the 7ths of dominant 7th chords and the guitar answers by resolving FOR the singer rather then with him or her. Only the G chord in the middle is clearly called in by the singers note, a G or B usually. And then the final F chord before resolve is often called in again with that Bb in the melody.
Fandango de Lucena seems to be the precursor of Taranto with the same idea of Fandango form but weird notes called in. It goes as far as have the Bb move down to F...a clear V7/IV move yet the guitar sticks to fandango form and moves to C!! But the Taranto family keeps that idea.
Still I find it strange these all evolved sooner then good ol' clean and clear basic fandango form with notes in key that the guitar responds to. Of all the levante forms it seems Granaina is the one that sticks to the fandango form more clearly, with Chacon's versions being an exception doing more or less the same thing as the malagueñas as described above.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 7 2011 22:03:19
|
|
NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
|
|
RE: Jesus Montoya/Ricardo Marlow Live (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
quote:
So it seems the Huelva style is first, then this weird Abanolao version of the same type of song but where the singers give the WRONG note for the chord (dominant 7 implied but not played), then these guys started to slow down all the different Abandolaos until you had essentially free style malagueñas that lead to Granainas and Cante de la minas styles (still with those weird wrong dominant 7th notes to the normal huelva form) at which point the actual fandangos forms started to get affect with the time stretching until they were freer and more ornate (yet with actual in-key notes for the chords ) or were even set to more flamenco type compases such as solea, or totally free style.
Does that sound more like it?
Yes, but I don't think there's any proof that the Huelva styles came first. I said upthread that fandangos de Huelva are probably centuries old, but we can safely say the same about cantes abandolaos, assuming that both came from the Moorish prototype of the fandango. I don't think any researchers have stated that one predates the other. The few things that seem clear are that fandangos de Huelva and cantes abandolaos were developed on nearly opposite sides of Andalusia and that the cantes abandolaos (more specifically, regional fandangos in eastern Andalusia) probably gave rise to malagueñas, granaínas and cantes mineros. It's hard to determine exactly how and when the first cantes libres came about, although they say that the first malagueña libre was the style of Enrique El Mellizo (b. 1848). Malagueñas show up in abundance on the earliest flamenco recordings (unlike fandangos de Huelva, although this doesn't necessarily mean anything). Chacón, El Diana and others sing malagueñas more or less libres on their cylinder recordings. Just to specifically address all the issues involved here, I'll say that free-form fandangos have obviously been influenced by fandangos de Huelva but probably in much more recent times and not in origin.
_____________________________
Be here now.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Dec. 9 2011 8:25:13
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
7.421875E-02 secs.
|
Printable Version
