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RE: PdL too clinical
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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 RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Pimientito)
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In my view it appears to be a question of appreciation, or maybe better to say sophistication.
With no idea of instrument playing requirements the focus seems to rest on lyrics and vocals. Joe average, it quite seems, judges his popular music mainly by that, enjoying the ever story of neglected or craving love etc. After all, the vast of pop music is being propelled that way.
- So much that consumers don´t even realize anymore that they are celebrating the x-th musical plagiat of an original song with one other time just a new kind of vocal track on it.
As long as only the vocals being new, to audience the song will be a new invention.
Whereas for listeners who appreciate the beauty and challenge of instrument playing, the actual musical quality much rather comes into focus.
I for one always found it undue how singers are being valued far above their fellow musicians in the combo; as vocal actually being the most natural task to manage.
( If only grown up in a somewhat natural ambience, singing ability will come in rather self-evidently from ground up / not nearly as demanding like mastering an instrument. - Let alone a very challenging one like the guitar.)
This is not to devalue exceptionally gifted singers and their beautiful voices ( in all genres ), neither to dismiss the very worthy preservation of traditional cante for historical reason at the latest.
But musically (= not lyrics conveying in the first place ) it seems only consequential to me how a fascinating instrument like the flamenco guitar has shifted into foreground.
It clearly deserves it.
- The singer might be allowed to accompany it. hehe 
Ruphus
PS:
Once, for a song of mine I had engaged two female singers. For reason of arrangement it needed a male background vocal too, which I did myself.
Later, one of the girls told me how she played that song to her aunt or so, and how her bewildered aunt asked her to wind back to where the male vocal was, saying like: "This singing sounds like an instrument!"
Possibly no accident.
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Date Sep. 7 2011 11:54:19
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo, you've simply got to get rid of those pesky straw men of yours; they keep coming back. Now you have me "trying to say that...solo guitar music is simply not flamenco". Let's return to my original post--it was triggered by ToddK's strange remark that one cannot understand flamenco without understanding PdL, thus implying that PdL and thus guitar were the central pillar of flamenco, when that's historically just not accurate. Flamenco's central pillar is cante (or was cante, until the cult of the guitarist became entrenched). And when I say Read About It (history), I'm not referring only and specifically to cante, but to the history of flamenco--but that history will show that cante came first, then baile and toque entered in. How about this as a new ToddK-style pronunciamento: You cannot understand flamenco unless you are familiar with its history. We can all agree on that (can't we?).
Deniz, your reply speaks for itself. Thank you. Ruphus, WTF?? Florian, the point of my posting is/was not to have a clinic on cante, but rather to (again) try to keep in the back of people's minds certain fundamental truths about flamenco's origins and structure. If this post motivates some aficionados to delve into flamenco's past, then it will have served its purpose.
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Date Sep. 7 2011 13:35:20
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Guest)
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There is a simple explanation for the explosive growth of flamenco guitar compared to cante: the average person who has not grown up listening to cante will be repelled by it. Cante is harsh, slurred, often strongly and disturbingly emotional, and sung by people with "untrained" and raspy voices. Out of a random group of 1,000 people, 900 will like flamenco guitar, 900 will like baile (José Greco once said that all women wanted to be loved by José Greco and that all men wanted to be José Greco), but only one person will really like cante. Among modern-day flamenco aficionados, such as those populating this Foro, the number of those enjoying cante will be larger than one out of a thousand, but it will still be far, far smaller than those whose afición is centered on the guitar. Cante is just not everybody´s cup of tea, and that´s why it never, ever could have spread flamenco throughout the world to the extent that the guitar and the dance have--no surprise at all there.
Again, none of this is to detract from the mastery of PdL or the beauty and grandeur of the best flamenco guitar (that does not accompany cante, its traditional and original role). But are the millions out there who may be grooving on the various guitar gods of flamenco being exposed to the full essence and core of what flamenco is/was? I don't think so, and, if they were, a huge majority wouldn't like flamenco at all (all that nasty, screeching "singing"--who likes that??). Just sit somebody down and show them Agujetas singing his martinete on Saura's Flamenco DVD, and see how long they last.
Deniz, I'm happy to answer your question. My interest in flamenco is strictly that of a non-performing aficionado. I fell in love with cante flamenco back in the 1950s, and have loved it ever since, even though everyone I've ever exposed to cante has hated it, though they love the guitar and the dancing.
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Date Sep. 8 2011 13:47:00
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to runner)
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quote:
But are the millions out there who may be grooving on the various guitar gods of flamenco being exposed to the full essence and core of what flamenco is/was? I don't think so, and, if they were, a huge majority wouldn't like flamenco at all (all that nasty, screeching "singing"--who likes that??).
Lot of assumptions there. I am sure there are not "millions" that view flamenco guitar FIGURAS (gods if you must use the term), but among the perhaps thousands, I doubt the fans are totally unaware of any of their guitar heroes work with singers. In fact in cases such as Vicente Amigo, who has produced albums FOR singers that have had huge success such as Jose Merce, it turns out to be a commercial hit...at least in Spain. Of course abroad there will be more guitar albums sold, but when you are counting heads of who cares about a "flamenco guitar hero", you have to include everyone.
Perhaps Jose's album would not have been such a hit if not for Vicente's name on it? But wait, then he played with only Moraito and sold EVEN MORE. And even did a tour that included USA.
It is true the audience for cante has always been and always will be elite. I put flamenco guitar solo in the same "elite" bin, compared to the world of guitar lovers. In spain you don't see many guitar concerts compared to cante. In fact you don't get as much dance either as outside spain.
Now an interesting question. Who has sold more recordings, Pepe Marchena or Jesus del Rosario? Camaron or Manolo Sanlucar? Manolo Caracol or Gerardo Nuñez?
Once again, none of this topic is appropriate for the point about PDL being important to listen to or hyped up as an artist. I felt ToddK's remark to a one years level GUITAR student (a "wannabe" is not such a nice term for a student) about Paco's importance never implied he or guitar in general was the only pillar of flamenco...but even if it DID, taken as a whole, Paco 's work with singers is also exemplary and implied as something to be looked at. It was never implied one needs to look at ONLY paco's solo guitar work (although many have stated they prefer his older period to his recent work).
Simple fact:Flamenco is 3 pillars big. Depending on where you are, or who you are, any one of the 3 may seem larger in terms of popularity or artistic merit, or historically, or simply what has great meaning to you. At certain point a guitar student needs to focus on just guitar. At another time, baile. And at another time focus only on cante. All 3 are important for appreciating the art form completely.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 8 2011 14:55:18
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo, thanks for calling me out on my use of the term "millions". I don't have access to album sales figures or concert attendance, so "many thousands" would have been a better choice. On another point: do you have an answer to your question about relative sales of the cantaores you mentioned vs. the guitarists? I'll join the others who would like to know. I will note that Pepe Marchena had a long career founded on deeply corrupting and altering cante so as to attract a much larger audience that just wasn't there for traditional cante, especially cante gitano. He sold lots of recordings. Pohren covers this well in Lives and Legends of Flamenco. Manolo Caracol was a fantastic singer of authentic cante, when he wanted to be, but, also in a long career, he would sing just about anything that would make him pesos, so his sales, while large, only have a small flamenco component. Camaron's career took place during a period of profound change in what many considered flamenco, and he surfed that wave until he died, so we'll have to postpone judgement for a while. But your hints about relative sales really don't alter the truth about traditional cante and its relative popularity. Elroby states accurately the reality of the situation.
I, for one, am not disappointed that average joe america doesn't like cante. For the reasons I mentioned above, it would be amazing if he did. Cante is an acquired taste, and will appeal only to a relative few, compared to toque and baile. That's just the way it is.
P.S. Great YouTube selections!!
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Date Sep. 8 2011 16:07:37
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Simple fact:Flamenco is 3 pillars big. Depending on where you are, or who you are, any one of the 3 may seem larger in terms of popularity or artistic merit, or historically, or simply what has great meaning to you. At certain point a guitar student needs to focus on just guitar. At another time, baile. And at another time focus only on cante. All 3 are important for appreciating the art form completely.
After all the verbiage expended on the topic, the above-cited statement sums it up best. And while some may like only guitar and not cante (which is a perfectly legitimate stance based on taste), they will not truly understand the origins, development and, ultimately, flamenco as it exists today. The last line above is key: "All three are important for appreciating the art form COMPLETELY." (Emphasis mine.)
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 8 2011 17:45:52
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everybody loves cante bla h blah yet in my cante discussion and accompaniment examples tread it was always the same handful of the same people getting involved over and over, noone more involved than Ricardo 
...get involved...dont say cante is important...proove that is important and that you ve paid attention to it 
