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RE: PdL too clinical
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Mark2
Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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 RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Paul Magnussen)
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I didn't realize that Tom was a friend of the recording engineer(s) who mixed her records. I'm pretty sure auto tune is used on most pop records, and as to lip syncing, I have no idea. It's pretty clear to me that she is not representing herself as a vocalist, but as a pop star. Google her image, and if you think she has no appeal, then that's ok with me.
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ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen
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And as far as Brit, she IS great-at what she does. That lady has been a professional entertainer almost her entire life, has all kinds of training and experience, incredible instincts for what a large segment of the public wanted, and an ablity to deliver it.
Hmm:
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Take Britney Spears as an example. She cannot sing in key and the recording studio engineer has to make corrections before they release a cut. When Britney sings on stage she lip syncs to one of her edited recordings.
Thomas Whitely, this forum, 01 Feb 2004
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Date Aug. 31 2011 5:28:50
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to runner)
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quote:
I am a living fossil, and I remember what flamenco was. If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Manuel Torre. Period.
Your as old as that??? 
Seriously, your point is well taken regarding flamenco in general. I for one made a point to distinguish understanding evolution of FLAMENCO GUITAR as a genre, it is important. In terms of understanding cante, we can actually ignore Paco altogether, focusing more on his brother who wrote some catchy estribillos and cuple letras and such that have become sort of "traditional" in performances now a days. And perhaps guys like Paco or Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo have also made some small contributions in this manner to the cante, with their own nifty estribillos and such.
But for the most part, this thread was never about CANTE specifically, it was a simple question regarding the recordings of PDL and if they are hype or deserve a careful listen. We can start up a new topic regarding the importance of Cante and the guitar's role. A man playing a guitar in a chair for sure is not the whole picture of flamenco, but can be very flamenco just the same. A greater and more realistic fear is the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 6 2011 16:36:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
A greater and more realistic fear is the vision of flamenco in the future, is of a pretty girl with a flower and castanets stomping her feet, as that has been a world view for sometime now.
In the Western (male) imagination, wasn't the flower usually between her teeth? Seriously, Ricardo, don't you think that Jose Greco's dance group, in the 50s and 60s, had a lot to do with the picture you paint above? There are still many people, (not truly aficionados) who go to a flamenco performance thinking the dance is everything--as you wrote, castanets clicking and feet stomping.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 6 2011 18:03:33
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
Seriously, Ricardo, don't you think that Jose Greco's dance group, in the 50s and 60s, had a lot to do with the picture you paint above?
Well yes that was my point. Miss conceptions of flamenco have been going on since the 1950's. In fact if in the distant future the vision of what flamenco was, becomes Paco sitting in a chair playing his guitar, it would be an improvement (small one but still...) to the current general view of what it's all about.
Similarly, our view of early flamenco starts with this guy Planeta, and a photo of him with guitar, sideburns, and a funny hat....that is all there was to early flamenco? Just this guy? Of course not...
http://www.flamenco-world.com/magazine/about/historia_del_flamenco/paginas/12.htm
It is funny how to be really "into" flamenco at it's deepest level, it is to care mainly about singers and singing....pushing the role of the guitarist way to the background or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether. Yet, the flamenco guitar genre as a solo instrument somehow has managed to evolve into one of, if not THE, most advanced styles (in terms of form, technique, expression, sophistication, and difficulty in achieving mastery) on the planet. It is shameful how many flamenco aficionados don't appreciate that or take it's implications with pride, as a triumph for the genre as a whole, but would rather take the extra effort to put down one who would choose to play a guitar solo ("solista") on stage.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 6 2011 19:36:18
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Ricardo)
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I understand the difficulty that a post like mine causes the vast majority of Foro contributors--almost everyone who writes or posts about flamenco is a guitarist or a wannabe guitarist. But, Ricardo, let's get rid of the straw men--nobody (not me, anyway) is pushing the role of the guitarist "way into the background, or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether". And there are very few aficionados (like, none) who don't appreciate fine flamenco guitar or who put down those who choose to play a guitar solo. Let's keep the discussion confined to reality. I suggest quietly that all the naysayers take a little time out and read something about the history of flamenco, and about the way it was practiced and enjoyed for some 150 years, and then report back. It's not "funny" about being into flamenco at its deepest level by caring mainly about singers and singing--it's what flamenco has been primarily concerned with for all those long years. Many wall posters advertising upcoming flamenco events in Spain back then would name the singers and not the guitarists, and often the singers chosen by wealthy señoritos for an evening's juerga would then pick out which guitarist they wanted to accompany them. We can wring our hands over the status of the poor guitarists, but that's often the way it was.
Pretty girls with castanets have been a staple of flamenco album covers since I can remember. Paco Peña and his troupe have pretty girls with castanets; so did José Greco, but Greco also made a fantastic recording with Manolita de Jerez and Rafael Romero that offered some of the best examples of the combined power of cante, toque, and baile. Ditto Sabicas & Co. on the album shown--there's an example of how potent a force Sabicas was as an accompanist, such as to extract never-to-be-duplicated performances from such mediocre cantaores as E. Montoya and D. Alvarado (too bad nobody's heard these LPs).
Deniz, I take you at your word that you have the mind of a scientist. What is your area of expertise?
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Date Sep. 6 2011 20:53:28
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Ricardo
Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to runner)
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quote:
But, Ricardo, let's get rid of the straw men--nobody (not me, anyway) is pushing the role of the guitarist "way into the background, or worse, ignoring the contribution altogether". And there are very few aficionados (like, none) who don't appreciate fine flamenco guitar or who put down those who choose to play a guitar solo.
But by trying to say their solo guitar music is simply "not flamenco" by your definition, you ARE putting them down in a way...a most insulting way at that. In any case it is still irrelevant to this thread. Instead of just saying in this topic "it's about manuel torre" who paco did not accompany, then say "not to belittle Paco, a fine accompanist", why not simply contribute by pointing out examples of his accompaniment you DO recommend for listening?
Also, it is not so fair to assume your post causes "difficulty" to foro members because we are mostly guitarists or wannabe guitarists....as if none care so much for cante. We have a 19 page thread dedicated to cante accompaniment, which as far as I know, you have not felt compelled to contribute to. I think it is great you have aficion for cante, and older flamenco in general, but why not contribute then in a more positive way? Just saying "read about it" is not contributing much.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Sep. 7 2011 1:58:10
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