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I think I've completely lost the point of this thread. Rom- It doesnt surprise me that there have been phenomenal people historically who are unknown or unrecorded. Many teachers are responsible for some very well known students but are themselves relatively unknown. I understand no one person can be entirely be given the credit for anything which evolves from a culture but if we do not recognise the likes of the Wright brothers or Einstein then we have to say that everything is a collaboration....and maybe it is! Every great person or invention is the pinacle of all the ideas, experiments and influence in those fields at that time leading to a breakthrough....but surely thats obvious isnt it....and its those on the top of the heap that are recognised. There have been very few figures like Newton as exceptions who literally seemed to invent new branches of maths or thought independantly.
I dont deify Paco, but at the same time I recognise the fact that most of his career has been influencing things that followed rather than being influenced himself. Is anyone else forgetting a more than 80...thats right, EIGHTY album career, the dozen groundbreaking solo studio albums including Almoraima and Sirocco, another dozen studio guitar collaborations, 4 live albums, classical interpretations, a seminal recording of Rodrigos concierto, his 14 album career with Camaron, over 30 albums with other flamenco singers, 9 jazz albums, not to mention literally dozens other albums where he guests.....filmtracks for 4 movies, the Prince of Asturias award, Berkeley Doctorate in Music.....and still touring at 64 years old. What else can I say?
It doesnt matter if you dont understand or even like some of the later albums. This is not a normal musical career - flamenco or otherwise and Paco deserves the credit he gets regardless of those who influenced him.
As to his career in Spain, it may be worth noting that he won the Ramón Montoya Prize in 1983; and he does play concerts there, particularly in Córdoba of course. But no, I don’t think he tries to compete with the current crop of post-Lucía whiz-kids.
In another sense, there were other people there first.
Years ago someone else also made the comment to me that Paco might not be the best player in Spain, that maybe some guy lived somewhere in obscurity on a mountain and never got recorded or recognised...but was an unbelievable talent....like some sort of 100 year old Tibetan Martial arts Guru.
My question is this, if an unbelievable talent never has an influence on culture or society, does that still make them the best? Isnt being recognised by your peers a part of success in what you do? If someone is a genius at something and has no influence on their culture, have they achieved greatness?
This is not the same as asking if fame is the same as talent...but can a lone guru really be considered one of the greats if he has no influence on his society?
ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen Paco Peña came to London in 1963 and moved there in 1967
Thanks for the correction. He moved next door to my friend's house in the 80's which is what I based my date on, had no idea he had been in London for 20 years already.
I really don't give a horses patoot where PdL ranks in the popularity standings but, just for the record, he has an honorary doctorate from the Berklee College of Music, an independent school of contemporary music (mostly jazz and rock) in Boston which is in no way connected to UC Berkeley in California.
There is even a chance that without PC (and Sabicas), Paco might not have done what he did.
Sure, there is a chance. And also N. Miguel influenced, even if indirectly, and later more directly the young composers he helped create. He took things from Riqueni, Nuñez and Tomatito of course (whom he played with) Cañizares, and later V. Amigo. All helped drive Paco to his current place. Point is HE continued to grow from this, where as the other's are still sort of where they started. That is the thing that sets him apart, his drive to constantly upgrade himself. It makes him a one stop shop for study...if you care to learn.
I have to say as big of a fan of Paco's as I am now, it took me some time to get into. For me, I don't think studying the harmony would really help me appreciate music. At the end of the day it's first and foremost about emotional response, then comes the curiosity and desire to understand etc. Hence I disagree with Ricardo on the notion that if I understand it logically I will like it. However, having strongly disliked a few different kinds of music only to become obsessed with them later I can say that listening over and over again helps the music grown on you. Mind you I don't feel like I'm forcing anything on myself but I do think that we're all used to certain harmonies and when we hear something new to us it can be jarring and can take some time to adjust.
For example I grew up disliking heavy metal, then when I was in high school I found a song or two that I liked, kept listening to the same bands occasionally revising the material I didn't like and eventually I got accustomed to the genre as a whole. It may seem strange to compare metal to flamenco but my experience getting adjusted to both genres was virtually identical. The first thing in flamenco that grabbed me was this video which I'm sure 99% of you have seen dozens of times:
Immediately I acquired Paco's "best hits" album and started listening only to be disappointed with all but maybe 2-3 songs, liking only the occasional phrase in most. For some reason though I kept coming back and more and more of it grew on me. I also did not like cante at first because the style of singing was very unusual to me. Same thing: I found some songs with cante that I liked, kept looking for more, some of the ones I didn't like grew on me and voila! Now funnily enough I prefer flamenco that I didn't like when I first started listening. I didn't really get the bulerias, soleares, seguiriyas (especially seguiriyas) and now they are my favourite cantes. I didn't like Paco's album "Luzia" at all, now it's definitely my "desert island" album. I bought Cositas Buenas about a year ago and I'm still digesting it.
Now however rumbas sound quite generic to me and I tend to avoid them. I still like quite a few but I'd take most palos over them any day.
Ultimately my point is that I truly understand not getting an artist everyone is raving about. Years ago when I played electric guitar people were telling me to check out various guitar gods, jazz legends etc and I could honestly never get into it. Instead I ended up abandoning electric guitar altogether because I ended up liking flamenco. Go figure. But also I definitely recommend keeping an open mind, seeking out other artists all the time, revisiting albums you didn't like because you might hear it very differently in a year or two.
I've been playing flamenco for about a year and almost everything I read points to Paco de Lucia as the greatest Flamenco guitarist around. I have not heard him live but I have watched videos and listened to recordings. Whilst I agree that he is great technically, I find him a bit clinical and lacking in the excitment that I look for in Flamenco guitar. Is it me or am I missing something? I realise that I have probably just commited Heresy and will probably be excommunicated from the forum, but does anyone agree?
Derek, I agree! He might be (is) the god, the innovator, the translator, the motivator and what not, his technique may be out of this universe,...but I am not emotionally moved by it. Thats fine with me, there so much more to explore.
In the end it is all about an emotional feeling...
the god, the innovator, the translator, the motivator
Don't forget the generator, agitator, accelerator and now regulator apparently.
I personally have no problem with a guitarist playing the same 5 falsetas his entire career provided that they are inimitably his own, memorable and make me break out into chills. The idea that guitarists need to constantly come up with new material is an impossible standard. Only composers like Paco can do this. Most flamenco guitarists don't have this gift for composition and that is just one thing that sets Paco apart.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
Don't forget the generator, agitator, accelerator and now regulator apparently.
LOL!
I understand what you are saying, as many people are saying. Paco deserves a prominent place in flamenco, but one doesn't automatically imply the other.
It's an interesting question. My view is that many are called, few are choosen. PC, and perhaps others maybe did some things first that Paco got the credit for, but maybe didn't get recognized for them for various reasons.
But , it was Paco who made all the records, played all the concerts, played for all the great singers, and became famous all over the world. No one else deserves the credit for that.
Of course there are unknown great players. That is wonderful but, that's hardly the same as walking out at on the stage of the Teatro de Real and recording a live album that sounds like, well, what THAT album sounds like. Who else could do that at that time? No one.
Whatever the reason for a great players obscurity, be it connections or sheer luck, the credit goes to the man in the arena.
Paco wasn't my favorite player for my first few years of studying-he sounded too modern. Sabicas sounded more "authentic" to me. As I came to understand more about what Paco played, it became clear that my understanding of authenticity needed to be enlarged.
Ricardo wrote that people who can actually play Paco's stuff will always recognize his place at the head of the table. I'm pretty sure that learning just a small fraction of his stuff, without even getting it anywhere near speed, will suffice for most.
quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
quote:
This is not the same as asking if fame is the same as talent...but can a lone guru really be considered one of the greats if he has no influence on his society?
Depends. Some people are ahead of their time. Can you blame the guru if people are not ready to receive his wisdom because he is not from the same ethnicity or social class? I don't believe a guru's greatness is dependent on who accepts his influence. Hell, more than half the idiots in the US voted for W. What does that say?
Derek what have you done ! 113 replies and counting ' is this a record ,and I have,nt even put my two penth worth in yet I read this thread when it first started now im going to have to set aside an afternoon and then jump in my self !!!!!!!! I know what Im gonna say for what its worth and I,m both with and against you. Guijiras is one of my favorite palos and Guijires de Lucia is just like a machine .it dose,nt SWING But the Tangos La Canada is just full of emotion I suggust you keep listening theres plenty of tracks I can suggust yet think a hundred odd replies have beaten me to it.
All the best and good luck CRAIG
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"Now Im retired I,ve got my practise time down to 4 hours aday".................Julian Bream
I strongly disagree. If you say "No one has done that" then fair enough. But you ask "Who else could do that at that time." I think there are a couple of others.
I think he implies that it was Paco's reputation that helped him take that stage. If you know the story, they only let classical musicians in that door, Paco was the first flamenco allowed there and it was a big scandal. Of course tons of artists could have literally performed on that stage and perhaps some could have filled it with gitanos too, as Paco did.
But somehow PDL was the first one let in that door. That is the point I think he was making.
If there were a few others who could have done that gig, they would have. I'll grant that to do that gig, you not only had to play in such a way as to amaze the audience, you had to have a public, created through reputation and promotion, as well as record company support, etc. All those elements needed to be in place to do what Paco did on that occasion, and I don't think there was anyone else who had all that at that particular moment.
And as far as Brit, she IS great-at what she does. That lady has been a professional entertainer almost her entire life, has all kinds of training and experience, incredible instincts for what a large segment of the public wanted, and an ablity to deliver it. We're there hotter looking girls who could sing better? Sure, but they didn't do what she did to be in the position to deliver the goods.
There are always people who could have done this or that. What one man can do, another can. Could is not the same as did.
I'll agree that the "arena" is not the only measure of greatness, not by a long shot. It is where the spotlight shines the brightest, and it takes a certain type of person to thrive in it. Combine that skill with Paco's other talents, and he is all alone atop the throne. There are many princes, but Paco is still the king IMO. If for you, Pedro is better, that's fine. For others, it's VA, Moraito, etc. There's a lot of great players.
I don't think people who say Paco did this or that first can be considered ignorant, if the only evidence of the contrary is essentially unavailable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: romerito
I strongly disagree. If you say "No one has done that" then fair enough. But you ask "Who else could do that at that time." I think there are a couple of others.
I accept that there is only one man in the 'arena' but the arena is not the only important nor even most important criterion for greatness. By that criterion, Britney Spears is great. She is in the arena (figuratively and literally-a different arena but an arena nonetheless).
Bottom line for me. I love the guitar catalog of Paco and acknowledge his prolific output. He is a 'go-to' guy for many of the things I like about contemporary flamenco BUT...I will always see PC as every bit as great and better in some ways-someone who innovated long before Paco but who did not have the output to solidify his name in the pantheon of guitar gods. Knowing who he is though, I will just have to chuckle to myself everytime I read ignorant comments. There is a whole world out there that we just never can know about.
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But also I definitely recommend keeping an open mind, seeking out other artists all the time, revisiting albums you didn't like because you might hear it very differently in a year or two. 
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