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I cannot believe the passion this simple posting has evoked.
Well, recognize that Paco is a god to most flamenco guitarists. He is like the pope. He is the current maestro that everyone must bow down to, even if some people say they prefer this or that flamenco guitarist, he is the master.
Basically, what you have written amounts to saying something like Jimi Hendrix, i just don't get the hype.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
Paco and Fosforito, and paco and Camaron are 2 of my favorite combinations. I listen to has accompaniment a lot more often than his solo albums, but I can say that about most players who did accompaniment
ToddK, sorry I mentioned the wrong years, BUT i think you know where im getting at: here is what i mean: I LOVE this OLD stuff of his, back in the days when he was still young and good looking:
but NOW , I do NOT like this Bulerias (album from 2003)
WTF is that compared to his old stuff? this new stuff is not appealing to me
Thanks for all the feedback. Perhaps clinical was the wrong word to use but I couldn't think of how to explain my feelings properly. I understand what everyone is saying although I am a bit concerned about comments that seem to imply that PdL is solely responsible for Flamenco as it is now, which seems to negate the efforts and talents of many other players. In my defense please realise that I am new to Flamenco and have not heard very much compared with many of you. Also my technical skill is not of a very high level as I am only a beginner at playing in this stlye. I will persevere at listening and perhaps in due course will get more from PdL playing.
Not very much, I try to listen to stuff online when I can. I do agree with kudo about the two videos he posted earlier, to me the old one is much more Flamenco than the later one. Perhaps being old (63), I am more of a traditionalist.
I enjoy Carlos Montoya and Tomatito ( not the jazzy stuff) and recently been listening to El Nino Miguel. I sometimes for light relief listen to he whose name must not be mentioned in the same breath as Flamenco (MDP) I don't get a lot of time to just sit and listen as I spend a lot of my time trying to learn
Without getting into the pointless arguments of defending any artists, I feel you need to make some time to listen if you truly WANT to learn. And I don't mean time for PDL, but he does have a huge amount of varied recordings compared to other flamenco artists. Developing knowledge and aficion for music requires many hours of listen before forming any rock solid opinions.....IMO.
Of course it is fine to "like" anything you want at anytime, but just keep an open mind if you can.
As for others that have responded with similar feelings that have been "listening" to flamenco for years....WTF?
You are younger than Paco then!! Derek, welcome to the forum, you started with a post that was going to create a lot of debate. I agree with so many of the opinions posted, even some that seem to be contrary to each other. Paco is without doubt the single most influential figure in flamenco guitar and it will take you a while to digest his repertoire and understand some of the later material. I didnt realise myself the extent of his achievement until I understood compositionally and technically what he was doing...and that was after many years of study on the guitar. I dont think its possible for a beginner to really understand just what a mammoth task it was to get to his level. I cant really sum it up better than Todd did. Saying all that, you dont need to play like Paco to be a good guitarist or enjoy flamenco. I agree with Florian too (what, florian and todd at the same time????) Paco represents the top level and is not representative of what you normally hear. If you can appreciate or play material by Tomatito, Paco Cepero, Diego Gastor, Moraito, Pepe Habichuela etc. you will be playing real flamenco with a lot of Gypsy Aire. Only a few people can play Pacos stuff to a performance level so its better initially study easier falsettas. With time you will see what all the fuss is about.
Its all just a matter of choice based on your own experience with Flamenco and other music. I agree and also prefer classic Flamenco to the more contemporary. I sometimes listen to PDL and Modrega cd's, I do not like his later stuff. I always listen to Paco Pena', the Late Moraito Chico, Pepe Habichuela and Paco Serrano. This is what appeals to me but I can recognize the talents of Many other guitarists,although they may not move me.
Same here. You won't find any of Paco's cd on my car. And the only top rated PdL song in my itunes library is Almoraima.
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ORIGINAL: lsnyman
Its all just a matter of choice based on your own experience with Flamenco and other music. I agree and also prefer classic Flamenco to the more contemporary. I sometimes listen to PDL and Modrega cd's, I do not like his later stuff. I always listen to Paco Pena', the Late Moraito Chico, Pepe Habichuela and Paco Serrano. This is what appeals to me but I can recognize the talents of Many other guitarists,although they may not move me.
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
I throw my lot in with elgreco and Isneyman. I recognize that Paco de Lucia advanced flamenco and, at least at one time, was considered the best. Nevertheless, he was not, and is not, God. At any given time, someone always is considered the best, and there is always someone who (building upon previous generations) advances the art form, be it flamenco or something else.
I, too, prefer older more traditional flamenco, and the jazzier PDL got in his later stuff, the less I liked it. I do not say this to start an argument with those who disagree. I recognize that each of us has our individual lens through which we view current music, in this case flamenco. But if I had only two flamenco artists' CDs to take with me on a desert island, they would be Paco Pena and the early Paco Cepero, with Paco Cepero preferably accompanying.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
PdL is the Picasso of flamenco. Did he perfect the classical school early on, got bored and innovated? Yes. Would I study him? Yes. Would I hang one of his paintings in my living room? Heck no.
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
Derek... all I have to say is that thank god that your post did not encounter the wrath of the "professor who teaches a course on PdL's technique that shall not be named here"!!
Welcome to the Foro... you'll find many passionate flamencos here... it's a great place to learn more about flamenco and to meet people who are as passionate and dedicated to learning as you may be.
the new stuff (especially when you base it off his looks )
dude, WTF???? you think im based it off his looks? are you f**ing kidding me?? all I was trying to say that I liked the PURO stuff he played back in the days like Almoraima and etc. thats all, nothing to do with looks...
quote:
Like I said, everyone has their own taste. But the new stuff should be appealing to you, at least to some degree, if you've listened to enough flamenco and progressed with its evolution.
I never said I dont like Moderno, I like Diego del Morao's modern Solea for example. to each his own taste, its just that example of the Modern bulerias of PDL that I posted, thats an example that I dont like. its nothing like his old almoraima bulerias.
Anybody who truly understands Jazz (Real jazz) knows there is no connection between anything Paco has done and Jazz music.
Have to point out the non-flamenco influence in Tomatito and PDL's playing comes more from players like Baden Powell and Raphael Rabello than American Jazz players....The phrasing and harmony is more related to Brazilian Samba and Choro than be-bop or swing...besides Di Meola and McLaughlin were pioneers of Fusion guitar style and less aligned to the Jazz tradition..Latin, Indian, Rock,
the trio albums leave me pretty cold these days [ might dig them out to suggest to a student ] but as a teenager when these were first released...wow...
big fan of other elements being added to any music...as well as tradition and puro..
Not trying to sway you Derek, or necessarily 'defend' paco... just showing a small part of the 'feeling' i enjoy in PDL's music...technique aside...
heres paco and raphael playing [ no footage..shame]...yep it's not flamenco....but fantastic music with a great vibe..One of the greatest 'meetings' of guitarists from last century IMHO...
PDL has also influenced a generation of guitarist's who dont play flamenco....his influence on guitar Music reaches far....
I don't think anyone is knocking PDL here either. In fact, I think no one here with a pair of ears and eyes could possibly think that he isn't a monstrous talent, and one of the few true geniuses when it comes to flamenco guitar and guitar music.
I believe we are discussing his style and the original poster for whatever reason prefers the style of other players. I personally prefer the style of Nino Ricardo foremost. It speaks to me the most. Some prefer the rhythmic style of Moraito Chico, some prefer the virtuosity of Gerardo Nunez.
To the original poster I recommend listening to Paco accompanying Camaron,
perhaps his first solo record (I think) Fabulosa Guitarra, and some black and white you tube footage of him playing alone such as this:
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
Anybody who truly understands Jazz (Real jazz) knows there is no connection between anything Paco has done and Jazz music.
Have to point out the non-flamenco influence in Tomatito and PDL's playing comes more from players like Baden Powell and Raphael Rabello than American Jazz players....The phrasing and harmony is more related to Brazilian Samba and Choro than be-bop or swing...
Agreed! -
To my ears of the recorded pieces that rock the boat only a small number are from Paco. ( With his EDA being one of the best out there.)
Technical achievements ( including musical theory ones ) mustn´t equal groove in the same time. Though I love and admire his technical proficiency, most of his albums that I have are gathering dust here. ( That "Saturday Night in SF" thingy must have been musically worst of all, with three guys missing out each other, by each sticking to his own licks and routines simultaneously.)
When one gets more knowledge ability and feel for the music, and specifically the flamenco guitar playing techniques and RHYTHMIC expression, in context both as accompaniment and instrument for composing and doing variation on traditional lines, the more one realizes what paco has been doing is paralleled by only a mere handful of followers, and unsurpassed at present. Not saying I dont' like or respect music of many others in flamenco, but no one is really doing BETTER then Paco necessarily. Like why must HIS music specifically be not allowed in one's car??? Makes no sense if you are an aficionado of flamenco.
Another way to put it....nobody that actually can play some of his music properly feels that he is not the all around greatest flamenco guitarist of all time, including those of present and those no longer with us. Just because a new player can come up with a couple of cool falsetas that are refreshing and inspire us, or a nifty accompanyist for a certain singer really stands out, this seeming triumph can hardly stand up to the monumental contribution Paco has done for the art form and guitar playing at large.
When people sit and wonder "am i missing something? I don't get it? whats the hype?" the answer is yes you are missing A LOT actually.
Paco for me personally was the artist to really get me into flamenco. To me he is the best or rather, he's produced more material that I enjoy than any other artist. However I can still understand no matter how great I may think he is that some people simply might not like his style. What I think a lot of people here that are "defending" Paco on the grounds of his contributions to flamenco are missing is that a logical understanding and respect for what he did for flamenco is not always the same as emotional response to the music. I can respect what Mozart did but listening to his music is just not my cup of tea. Maybe if you look at music from the standpoint that if you like a certain kind of music you are obligated to keep up with the new movers and shakers then not listening to Paco is missing out. But there is not reason other artists cannot be an inspiration. Paco, as great as he may be is a person and he has his own personal style like any great artist and I don't understand how some of you can say that if you don't like this style you don't get Flamenco. A lot of great artists came and went and Paco will go as well. I think it's silly to define a genre in terms of one artist (although Paco did to a great extent define the genre) when IMO flamenco is bigger than any one artist.
....For instance some of you may not realize but it was PDL who brought the CAJON into FLamenco from Peru....before that the Espanoles where just banging on table tops
Rumbaking, check out the Youtube video, taken around 1969, of Paco Cepero, Camaron, Turronero, and Paco de Lucia sitting around a wooden table in some cafe playing and singing. Paco Cepero accompanies Cameron and Turronero, both of whom are "banging on the table top." It's pretty cool and is an example of spontaneous "juerga-like" playing that appeals to my antedeluvian taste in flamenco. No smooth cajon, no flutes, just raw, spontaenous flamenco.
Cheers,
Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Like why must HIS music specifically be not allowed in one's car??? Makes no sense if you are an aficionado of flamenco.
Ha,
I didn't say I do not allow Paco's cds in my car. I just do not enjoy Paco's music enough to have his cds in my car and listen to on a daily basis. I have only a 6-cd changer after all.
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Captain Esteban: Caballeros! I believe you all know each other? Don Diego from San Fernando. Don Francisco from San Jose. Don Fernando from San Diego. Don Jose from San Bernardino. Luis Obispo from Bakersfield.
if you don't like PdL, then don't listen to him. maybe you don't 'get' him. but if every famous guitarist that you listen to, can say Paco is the man.. then just believe in them. I listen to others more than Paco, I rarely listen to Paco.. but I'm sure he has done for flamenco more than any other single guitarist. Because this is what they say in interviews.. whether I get it or not doesn't really change the fact..
I can respect what Mozart did but listening to his music is just not my cup of tea. Maybe if you look at music from the standpoint that if you like a certain kind of music you are obligated to keep up with the new movers and shakers then not listening to Paco is missing out. But there is not reason other artists cannot be an inspiration. Paco, as great as he may be is a person and he has his own personal style like any great artist and I don't understand how some of you can say that if you don't like this style you don't get Flamenco. A lot of great artists came and went and Paco will go as well. I think it's silly to define a genre in terms of one artist (although Paco did to a great extent define the genre) when IMO flamenco is bigger than any one artist.
Ok, well I agree with you when we talk about a casual listener. But on THIS forum I consider everyone either a student of flamenco guitar or some other flamenco discipline, OR, an aspiring aficionado of the art form. If you are NOT any of these, but simply a casual listener then good for you, you can stop reading now. Any music student that studies classical music in school, intentionally, that doesn't "like" Bach, mozart, and beethoven, well....has issues IMO. Especially if it is because they only "like" Schoenberg or something. No one that is well versed in music theory "dislikes" Bach's music for example, it just doesn't make sense. Sure you can like some one or form of music BETTER, but totally not get into it??????
Anyway, I have been thinking about this because I am a serious aficionado of the art, and to write off certain artists cuz they are not to taste is a hinderance to the learning road from my point of view. In the case of cante, we can go back to the recording history and trace the evolution of a single palo of, lets say Solea, by comparing the different recordings of various singers. (see Norman Kliman's site). If along the way we decide we don't "like" the singing of Mairena say, and avoid his recordings, well, we loose out BIG TIME on some important cante's....again this assumes we are TRYING TO LEARN something about the art form overall, not just entertain ourselves.
Now, if we try to trace evolution of Solea with just a single singer, well we don't get very far at all because most singers sing the same melodies as adults that they did as youths. Perhaps the voice changes, but usually style does not so much. With guitar, it actually is THE SAME THING. Ramon Montoya recorded a lot and he plays the same pretty much over all that time period, even though fidelity got better. Same goes for his followers, Sabicas (playing the same falsetas up till his final concerts) N. Ricardo, Gastor, Morao, Moraito (see his teenage siguiriya and compare to his last recordings), Cepero (recorded a solo album, in 2003 or so, same falsetas he did in 1975), Paco Peña, Niño Miguel and moving on to modern players like Tomatito Gerardo, Riqueni, VICENTE AMIGO.....check the first and last solea's and you can see they could all fit together in the same piece if you wanted (well actually Gerardo has a weird one in there, but it could easily fit in the scheme of his first or second album). And the dynamic of improvisation in flamenco allows for that mixing of falsetas without things seeming too strange. (M. Sanlucar I will say is a parallel to Paco in the sense he evolved a lot too, but his body of work is not as enormous to say he is more important to the genre)....and now we have the young guys struggling to put out unique albums. Diego d. Morao with the same falsteta he did when he first popped up on the scene a few years ago....
Well it just so happens there is ONE SINGLE artist who's Solea recordings you can line up BY DATE OF RECORDING, both solo and as accompanist, and literally TRACE THE EVOLUTION of the genre. 1967, the solea on Fabulosa not far off from Montoya and N. Ricardo style, then 69 Solea por medio, then 72 Duende Flamenco, 73 an other solea por medio, Live teatro royale 75, 76 Almoraima, (all the records with singers along the way BY DATE, show even more detail of how solea has changed note by note...chiquitos in 64, Camaron and maria vargas, fosforito, Nino de Barbate, all in 70 fill in the evolution gaps perfectly), then Sirocco in 87 was a jump start to a new direction, the solea dedicated to N. Ricardo, then Luzia in 98, and finally we arrive at his Solea por buleria in Taranta modality on Cositas buenas....a slow steady evolution. Not to say he was not ever influenced by others around him, but few of those that influenced him have evolved in kind. If they do it is on a small scale compared to where Paco is coming from.
And all that is just ONE PALO, by ONE artist. You can do the same with almost any palo Paco has recorded, so hence the "Hype" of why so many regard the man so highly, both artists and aficionados alike. So many students get "stuck" on one particular period of time or style they think they have "figured out", and the way things were done THEN that they miss out on all the beauty of the unbroken thread of a living breathing GROWING and changing art form...simply because they refuse to open the mind and the ears and listen.
So in the case of Paco, I think it totally unfair to compare a video from 1976 of his bulerias, to a bulerias recorded specifically for an album released in 2004. It is a disrespect to all the work it took him to GET there as an artist.
Again casual listening is fine if you want to just scrape the surface, but if you are seriously interested in developing an ear for the genre, it requires a LOT of work and time. Ottmar, Rodrigo and gabriela, C. Montoya Manitas etc, should not be a distraction from digging deeper into the art, but it often is for new comers. A good aficionado can see a live performance that is mostly "improvised" and recognize where letras came from, and guitar falsetas and compas"ings" too. That is the fun of seeing live flamenco performances and juergas, and when you KNOW, and something clever is done, it is a more strong and personal impact. In fact that should be EVERY listener's goal, to get to that point where you truly understand if not participate.
As an aside, there are those so deep into the cante dimension of flamenco (or baile) that they could care less about ANY guitarist's evolution or style. In the case of such aficionados, I totally understand a blatant disregard for Paco or any other guitarist's work. If a guitarist is in compas and plays the correct tonos, then he doesn't suck...it is that simple.
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