PdL too clinical

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PdL too clinical

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Derek Woulds

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun. 23 2011
From: Suffolk

PdL too clinical

I've been playing flamenco for about a year and almost everything I read points to Paco de Lucia as the greatest Flamenco guitarist around. I have not heard him live but I have watched videos and listened to recordings. Whilst I agree that he is great technically, I find him a bit clinical and lacking in the excitment that I look for in Flamenco guitar. Is it me or am I missing something? I realise that I have probably just commited Heresy and will probably be excommunicated from the forum, but does anyone agree?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 11:28:28

xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

you will find most of us disagreeing with you, some might agree...
just listen to more Paco and you'll change your mind, hopefully!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 12:12:29

Guest

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

quote:

Is it me or am I missing something?

yes...possibly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 12:17:44

GerryR

Posts: 23
Joined: Jul. 18 2011

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

quote:

...I find him a bit clinical and lacking in the excitment that I look for in Flamenco guitar. Is it me or am I missing something? I realise that I have probably just commited Heresy...

Some of his playing is great but some is, as you say, "clinical." I don't know your age, but I am older and like the older players and older music better than the "newer style" materials. Even when an older player plays new material, there appears to be something missing in "musicality"(?) to me. (I guess I am a heretic as well, but music is very subjective once you get past the mechanics of the playing.) JMO.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:02:53

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Derek Woulds)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:08:28

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

quote:

I've been playing flamenco for about a year and almost everything I read points to Paco de Lucia as the greatest Flamenco guitarist around. I have not heard him live but I have watched videos and listened to recordings. Whilst I agree that he is great technically, I find him a bit clinical and lacking in the excitment that I look for in Flamenco guitar. Is it me or am I missing something? I realise that I have probably just commited Heresy and will probably be excommunicated from the forum, but does anyone agree?

Clinical? Like he doesnt make enough mistakes?

How many guitarists have written something as painfully brilliant and beautiful as La Barrosa? Doesnt sound at all clinical to me. I think you missed something somehow.

The question to you is, Are you fully aware of Paco's impact on flamenco guitar, and how he basically single handedly changed everything?

Do you realize that when you listen to just about any other flamenco guitarist after 1970, you're hearing Paco in there somewhere?

Its kind of like saying you dont like The Beatles. Or you dont like Segovia.

Like them or not, they changed the landscape, and everything that came after was affected.

If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Paco de Lucia. Period..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:16:33

kudo

Posts: 2064
Joined: Sep. 3 2009

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to GerryR)

I agree with Gerry. I dont like Paco's jazzy fusion stuff. I like Paco de Lucia back in the days, like in the 80's

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:17:31

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to kudo)

quote:

I agree with Gerry. I dont like Paco's jazzy fusion stuff. I like Paco de Lucia back in the days, like in the 80's

Thats really odd, because the 80's was the time in which Paco was touring
with fretless bass, flute, etc and doing the sextet material which so many
people claim is "Jazzy".

Its funny to me, because when a jazz guitarist plays a harmonic minor scale,
or an E7b9 chord, people never say "He's too flamencowee"

Anybody who truly understands Jazz (Real jazz) knows there is no connection between anything Paco has done and Jazz music.
I think the main confusion comes from Paco working with John Mclaughlin and Chick Corea.
But playing with a Jazz musician, does not make you a Jazz musician.

:)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:23:20

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

"He's too flamencowee"

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Ramzi

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:42:03

Guest

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to kudo)

quote:

I dont like Paco's jazzy fusion stuff.

fusionyjazzybrazilianyrhumbery whatever it is...it's great music.
To be honest i dont ever listen to any of the 'Trio' albums but there was a time when that was all i knew and it was great to listen to and work bits out.
but now i'm looking into the Paco recordings with Fosferito.
He will always blow me away on all levels.
But like all of us we all like other players for different reasons.
I guess the point his technical 'playing' as opposed to his 'personality' performance. or how his playing connects emotionally.
so Derek is'nt making the connection on how the music 'feels'
it seems technical and cold...frio

personally I just don't see it that way...but it does'nt really matter anyway.
sure paco wont care either.
like what you like....

but then again i like the fretless bass, just not always. and flutes....just not sure about the sesame street vibe harmonica that interrupts the music....others really depise this 'fusion' stuff, i personally like it along with his traditional playing...there's a hell of a documented history with the man....

no law says you have to like him....but as todd said " it's impossible not to hear his influence....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 13:43:25

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

Derek... to be very honest, although I love PdL, he's not my favorite flamenco guitarist either. At the end of the day, it's down to taste.

Paco's technique is of course absolutely amazing and his knowledge of flamenco cante and history is amongst the best... the guy is a walking encyclopedia. He definitely has an amazing style and I think that what you refer as 'clinical' is how he sounds and compose. His material is so popular that it has become a bit of a cliche.

What sort of overkills it for me and what I mean by cliche is that everyone is influenced by him... and I mean everyone!!! You cannot blame people for that since he's such a great artist.
The result is that this has made Paco's sound somewhat common... it's not his fault and it's not fair to say that about him, but it's true. I do not intend to diminish other guitarists by saying that and to be fair, most really good guitarists have a sound and a style of their own... it's just that most of them come from the 'Paco de Lucia School of Flamenco Guitar' and you can hear it.

Personally, my favorite flamenco guitarist is Manolo Sanlucar. A lot of people do not like his style and his sound but I find that he is an incredible musician and artist. His sound is very unique and really suits his compositions, and his technique is also very personal if not understated (but here again, there are some things he does that I'm yet to hear the technical geniuses like Jeronimo do!).
He has never really hit the mainstream of success but every album he has put out since Tauromagia has been amazing... before that not so much. Listen to 'Locura de Brisa y Trino'... it's a monument!! I honestly do not think that a single PdL/Tomatito/GerardoNunez/Vicente Amigo album comes close to that album... it's that good. But here again it's only my opinion and my taste.
He has also composed some beautiful music for Sara Baras' 'Mariana Pineda', and I also love his 'Medea' album, although it's not flamenco.

Here again, I do not want to diminish the work of other musicians... flamenco would be boring if everyone sounded the same and we are very lucky to have some amazing guitarists out there. And at the end of the day, this is not a contest... it's ridiculous to put one guitarist against another. But at the same time I also think that there's so much hype around PdL that this tends to overshadow the other great artists... Manolo Sanlucar being one of them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 14:01:40

Derek Woulds

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun. 23 2011
From: Suffolk

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

Whoa there! One or two of you are getting very defensive. I was in no way denying his skill and influence and I enjoy listening to how well he plays. But I do not find him as involving on an emotional level as some other guitarists and it is the emotive aspect that drew me to Flamenco in the first place rather than classical guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 14:02:08

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Clinical? Like he doesnt make enough mistakes?

Good one Todd... I don't find Paco's music clinical at all. Listen to an album like Luzia or Cositas Buenas, these are incredibly deep albums. He says so much with his guitar... absolute poetry, and some of the deepest most heartfelt music I've ever heard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 14:21:18

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

trying to remember the last time when i put a PdL track on my mp3...
think it was during the Minera competition, in 2010

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 14:26:21

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ToddK)

quote:

Anybody who truly understands Jazz (Real jazz) knows there is no connection between anything Paco has done and Jazz music.
I think the main confusion comes from Paco working with John Mclaughlin and Chick Corea.
But playing with a Jazz musician, does not make you a Jazz musician.

I couldn’t agree more.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 16:21:02

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ToddK)

I’m finding that the older I get, the older the music (flamenco, anyway) I like to listen to. Right now I’m listening to Niño Gloria, and Sabas’s prewar recordings with the old singers like Angelillo.

Sabas said there was more solera those days, and I tend to agree.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 16:25:24

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

quote:

If you want to understand flamenco, you have no choice but to understand Paco de Lucia. Period..

excuse me man but that's nowhere near right IMO ...Paco however influential and pioneering on guitar was is just a small piece of something way way bigger and way more important then any one artist that started way before and will continue to go on way after him...infact bigger than even all of the guitarists together

not saying they not an important part of the puzzle ...but nowhere near enough alone

Paco is not the god of flamenco ...just guitar..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 16:26:50

Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ToddK)

He really doesn't make enough-not enough for almost anyone to cover his material without sounding really weak by comparison. You might be able to un derstand flamenco without understanding Paco, but you won't understand why flamenco is what is is today without some serious Paco listening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ToddK

Clinical? Like he doesnt make enough mistakes?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 16:57:44

Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

quote:

Paco is not the god of flamenco ...just guitar..

Yes, this pretty much sums it up for me as well.

Also, how can we criticize someone for saying that x artist's music does not make him feel an emotion as deeply as y artist. It makes no sense, music is subjective this way.

Many of Paco's pieces give me the chills, and some others don't. I would personally not characterize him as a player who is simply full of emotion, but then some of his works, for example his live Rondenas, have more emotion than any guitarist I have heard.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 17:07:17

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Harry)

quote:

Also, how can we criticize someone for saying that x artist's music does not make him feel an emotion as deeply as y artist. It makes no sense, music is subjective this way.

people always do that when ones technique too perfect...i heard that about Grisha etc..... i guess when someones technique is unarguable is the only thing left to attack

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 17:09:12

Rain

Posts: 475
Joined: Jul. 7 2005

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Florian)

quote:

people always do that when ones technique too perfect...i heard that about Grisha etc..... i guess when someones technique is unarguable is the only thing left to attack

I understand what you're saying Flo, but I don't agree with you entirely.
Have you ever heard of the guitarist Allan Holdsworth, he is a genius on the electric guitar, with an amazing perfect technique and admired by many great players, yet there is really very little to be said about the soulfulness in his playing or compositions. I took a friend to one of his concerts some 20 years ago, and I will never forget what he said when I asked him what he thought, he replied that "He was too good" meaning yes he can play fast and his harmonic knowledge was impeccable, but that was all he got from the experience and all he will remember.

I respect and disagree with Derek Woulds. It is a matter of taste after all, and with art everyone has his own. The artist Pollack to me is a joke, but to many artist think his work is genius.

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Free Palestine

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 17:34:37

ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

Hey Derek, just curious which other artists you enjoy in flamenco? I have often found that certain albums or artists sounded different to me once I came back to them after a while of listening to some other style of flamenco. For example, when I started listening to flamenco I didn't really pick up on Manolo Sanlucar right away. This week I've been listening to some of his work and it's like I'm hearing him with new ears.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 17:48:30

Derek Woulds

Posts: 30
Joined: Jun. 23 2011
From: Suffolk

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to ralexander)

I enjoy Carlos Montoya and Tomatito ( not the jazzy stuff) and recently been listening to El Nino Miguel. I sometimes for light relief listen to he whose name must not be mentioned in the same breath as Flamenco (MDP) I don't get a lot of time to just sit and listen as I spend a lot of my time trying to learn how to play Flamenco after a lifetime of playing Rock. I cannot believe the passion this simple posting has evoked.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 18:36:19

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

Paco Rules!!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 18:42:10

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Derek Woulds)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 18:46:10

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Derek Woulds)

I really like Paco's music, but not always. There's times, when it's simply too
Paco ... It's difficult to explain. He does these things that are so whimsical as he's
playing, but yet with such ferocity at the same time. It's like I just want to listen
to something simple, but Paco's never simple, even when he plays something
simple it's no longer simple, it's Paco.

So of course Paco is the greatest, I just don't always like listening to him.

Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 18:53:46

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to n85ae)

quote:

ORIGINAL: n85ae

I really like Paco's music, but not always. There's times, when it's simply too
Paco ... It's difficult to explain. He does these things that are so whimsical as he's
playing, but yet with such ferocity at the same time. It's like I just want to listen
to something simple, but Paco's never simple, even when he plays something
simple it's no longer simple, it's Paco.

1000%
best example for "simple stuff" would be his recordings with Fosforito. Played with such a cleanness and yet power or ferocity as you say. The guy is a monster player and composer no doubt, but still i prefer other players.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 18:56:37

gaash

Posts: 74
Joined: Jul. 29 2011

RE: PdL too clinical (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

quote:

Also, how can we criticize someone for saying that x artist's music does not make him feel an emotion as deeply as y artist. It makes no sense, music is subjective this way.

people always do that when ones technique too perfect...i heard that about Grisha etc..... i guess when someones technique is unarguable is the only thing left to attack

Exactly! Though I will say some of his later live performances seem to not include much fast picado anymore... maybe he is getting old...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 25 2011 19:34:42