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Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

Where is our moderator? 

Many of the people on this forum have been on a number of flamenco forums for a number of years. About half of these forums have “self destructed”. Attitudes, language, and egos have gotten in the way of the intended purpose of the forum. One person can destroy an Internet forum. Do any of you remember the flamenco-world forum? I could list a few more that evaporated and the reasons were the same.

This particular forum has its own interests and just one of them seems to be up loading a bit of flamenco music and receiving critiques. Positive, constructive comments are of value to the player as well as others. Condescending, vulgar, demeaning, thoughtless comments are not welcome by most people.

The Internet is a difficult place to communicate. There is no body language, tonal intonation or other means to “fully understand what is attempting to be conveyed. As an example of my last statement here is but one example. Princeton University did a study of two people sitting in a room who were within full view of each other. Only 25% of what was being discussed was understood by both parties. For Internet communications the number is between 4-8% understanding.

If a person’s primary language differs from anyone he/she is attempting to communicate with, it can be a problem of its own. Attempting to understand another person is important. What did he/she mean?

If you have had a hard day stay off Internet forums! At least read what you want to post before doing so. It may save you an apology later. Then again some people have aggressive personalities and vent anyway he/she pleases. Such individuals I avoid and doing so is nothing more than a means of attempting to prevent confrontation.

We are here to learn, share, and exchange ideas with each other. This is a moderated forum and the first time I can recall negative incidents occurring thanks to the comments of “ichbintoll”.

Ichbintoll by his own words is gone. How many times have we heard such comments from others on other forums? Any bets???

For those not worthy of having a true name and wishing to let others know what that is, it is a great way to have a façade and play act. You can do as you please and no one can associate you with the alias you have chosen. Even people using aliases can behave well with others.

I know of a few Americans who have serious mental problems who are on flamenco forums. They have caused disruption that is indescribable. Let there be peace on this forum or it will go the way of others – into the ether!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 15:31:38
 
duende

Posts: 3051
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

maybe we nead moderators? But this foro has been pretty free from "crazy" people


Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 15:38:33
 
Tenshu

Posts: 149
Joined: Oct. 18 2003
From: Belgium

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to duende

I vote Ron M. for moderator. He's knowledgeable about flamenco, often around and as far as I can tell very "stable".

P.S.: studies have shown that only 8% (!) of communication actually is conveyed through the content of the message. So yeah, it's a really big problem.

_____________________________

-T
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 15:50:03
 
Jamey

Posts: 184
Joined: Jul. 7 2004
From: Winnipeg, Canada

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

I liked the idea that this forum was vetted. I liked the notion that people had to offer up a bit of themselves in order to join as this was a show of sincerity and an effective screen for the types of individuals that have destroyed (and continue to do so) so many other forums and listservs.

Simon, I know you recently opened up the forum and did away with the vetting process as a way of increasing the user base, but perhaps using your original approach would again serve as a filter for those who want to conceal themselves in order to arrogantly step on others. Most of the regular contributors are long-time internet "trollers" having been on and suffered through many ill-fated online communities. I originally sensed a concerted effort here to stay away from that slippery slope and many here often have gone above and beyond in terms of encouragement and good will as a way of making foroflamenco different from all the others. It's been a place where people feel confident enough to post their stuff when they are absolute beginners. You won't get that anywhere else online due to the climate. I for one would like to see this forum stay healthy, cordial and encouraging.
Perhaps reinstating your previous approach is necessary.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 16:03:17
 
Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Jamey

Have I missed something ? Didn't notice any flame wars but I see ichbintroll posts have been removed, at least one I tried to look at has. I thought that despite opening up the forum without vetting new members that Simon still kept a tight rein on things, deleting offensive posts, banning anyone who causes problems and instateing other moderators when he is away or busy. So what did I miss ?


Kate

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Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 16:37:17
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3527
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

Hmmm, hey guys, did I miss something recently? I thought things were going pretty smoothly around here. Was there a flame war on one of the "channels" I don't frequent? I agree that forums must be tightly moderated, and I think this one is.

It was my impression that "ichbintoll"'s first post was annoying, but that he actually settled down and contributed after that shaky start.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 17:09:07
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

You missed his second post where he refereed to Ricardo in less then endearing terms, and had a few words for the rest of us as well, then said good bye. Other than that things have been going well this morning!

****************************************************************
Just found the post in question:
****************************************************************
RE: soleares (in reply to Ricardo)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Ricardo: So, You bastard.Now stop of nice.

I see that you already know all. Only Pacos sons in this forum.
If you dont want my experience, I go.
Than you all are happy again.
Bye.


< Message edited by ichbintoll -- Apr. 9, 2005 at 11:23:15 AM >

_____________________________

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 18:21:48
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

Ichbintoll has been deleted and his IP address blocked (he pissed me off too with a private message accusing me of racism and revealing his identity. Not guilty).

He has subsequently tried to re-register under a different identity but with a bad email address.

If you want to moderate posts we will need at least 3 moderators to cover. All posts will have to be passed by these moderators, including Guest posts.

As for filtering registrations, I can't see it really stopping this kind of behaviour and I cannot share out registrations amongst the moderators.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 18:34:19
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

I agree that forums must be tightly moderated, and I think this one is.


This forum is not moderated in that posts are not screened by a moderator before publication.

If we had some moderators we could do that. I would prefer that to screening registrations which is a bit of a pain and cannot be shared out.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 18:39:39
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

In reply to your question Tom, I was working today

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 18:43:37
 
rickm

 

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004
 

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

it is self policing to some extent. Ickie decided to leave due to peer policing by others and by his own dissatisfaction and unresolved anger. As Tom W suggested, in most cases the adults will take care of the children, as I too was mildly chastised once, took heed and grew from it. It is hard to remember it is a Internet forum and not definitive either in artistic value, scholarly value or any other. It serves to cultivate interest and should be relied upon exactly for that content. As Baretta once said (tv show) "dogs bark the caravan moves on... my two cents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 18:56:21
Guest

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

Well, I kind of like the idea that we ourselves are the moderators, and I think this thread is showing that we actually do so. Ichbin(nichtso)toll got told by many people to cool down. He did, but couldn't handle it. I'm glad Simon deleted him. It's such a waste of time with these "I'm going to tell you all how you are" persons.

Thomas is right though, it's enough with a few bad seeds to destroy the whole sack, so we should be very much aware of what is going on.

Nighty night. It's time for rasgueados exercises while I see the game Atletic de Bilbao versus La Real Sociedad.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2005 21:08:39
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Escribano

Simon;

I know it is impossible to control the content of each post. You did a great job taking action with an incident that could easily get out of hand. We all knew this foro was working well and continues to do so.

One bad apple that refuses to improve can be a problem. I believe in giving anyone a chance but in this one case things got much worse and quickly.

Again thank you for your action.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 2:50:01
 
Tenshu

Posts: 149
Joined: Oct. 18 2003
From: Belgium

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

I really wouldn't like a system in which a moderator had to approve every single post for it to show up. I think the system is good as it is, plus maybe a few extra mods.

How about we keep it playful: every time someonegets banned, he has to send a piece over email to one of the mods, who in turn posts it to the upload section. There it gets peer review: does it sound sincere enough? Was there a lot of effort put into the playing? If he passes the test, we vote in a poll for unbanning. If he fails, he has to post another piece - until approval is given.

_____________________________

-T
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 10:27:41
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Tenshu

quote:

He's knowledgeable about flamenco, often around and as far as I can tell very "stable".


LOL! Tenshu, pero no es verdad on both accounts!

I'm sorry ichbintoll's left...he sounded like a good player.
However he's a classic case of somebody taking himself too seriously IMO.
Also, it seems he didn't take time to at least find out who guitarists like Todd, Ricardo, Errol, Henrik etc were, or the general mood and style of the Forum....he just dived in.
He said he was lucky enough to live in a place in Germany with lots of great guitarists and singers and dancers, so obviously he sees the Forum as comprised of a bunch of wanabee tossers... wheras he and his friends are where the real action is.
Good luck to him, but personally, I think that's a pretty closed view on the world myself.
Hence my comments about those who feel themselves above such a thing as an amateur flamenco guitar forum... then why not try your hand out at the "big boy's" stuff, like trying to get a job in one of the Madrid tablaos and find out where you really stand?
However, on Todd's forum, somebody mentioned that there are good guitarists sitting playing in the street for a couple of euros from the passing public, so I guess the competition is gonna be pretty tough....
My final thoughts are, what's wrong with just being another guitarist...without all this hierarchical crap?
Why not just enjoy learning and playing for it's own sake?
Any of the professionals I've been lucky enough to meet have always been very generous in their praise of other players and have always been pretty easy going guys.

Why do folk get themselves so uptight about things?...

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 11:17:59
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Ron.M

Hi Folks,

I just received this nice message from ichbin....


"Hello, I read the discussion about me. And... yes you all are right. Im still a child and overreacted. Here I did it more than once in a short time. Im very very sorry about that. I sound like a man who hit his wife and after it, tells her sorry I wont do that again.. But i really dont repeat it.I wanna be a friend of the forum, but can understand you that u dont wanna give me one more chance. So many people are angry on me...Let me learn from you all, to come on the right way of thinking about flamenco.
I think in this way I can learn much from u. Now I ask you to have only one more tiny chance.....please. I post a small statement in "wheres the moderator" and let all the people vote after that. I swear, if they vote against me. I dont bother the forum more. ok? If that idea is ok, please confirm that im ichbintoll. If you are against the idea. Iwill accept. you can block pete2, too. , why am I a so stupid? I hope you have some mercy.
Very sorry,
Ich bin (not) toll. "

Well....we're all moderators here in reality...
And we've seen other "hotheads" who turned out to be great contributors (cough, cough.. )

I vote we give the guy a chance!

What say ye all?

Edit: To save heaps of individual responses, I've created a simple Yes/No Poll under "Ichbin".


cheers


Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 12:41:20
 
Taranto

 

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
 

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

I say only if he promisses to upload his solea in mp3 and power tab formats (the complete piece, not just that small bit). I personally won't settle for less.

Cheers, Taranto
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 13:46:24
 
flyeogh

Posts: 729
Joined: Oct. 13 2004
 

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

Everyone makes mistakes and it is not always easy to say sorry - he has done that But this forum is the bees knees and it is worth fighting for. How about reinstating our friend after a not too long a period of time. If he is then still interested so be it.

But whatever let no one doubt the value of what is here and that 99.9....% of everything is great and the way the top guys (not only the pros) offer so much to beginners like me is so so appreciated. Thanks to all.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 14:28:17
 
Thomas Whiteley

 

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Ron.M

Good morning Ron;

I am with you! As a Roman Catholic I have been taught to forgive.

I would like to see ichbintoll apologize to Ricardo, the others he belittled and to the forum. People make mistakes and people have the ability and power to forgive.

My concern for this incident is the sensitivity I have due to other forums that got out of hand and ended up evaporating. In Baseball we have one – two – three strikes you are out! Should ichbintoll be allowed back to the forum I hope that we do not get to the second and third strikes!

This is a mellow group and we are here to help each other.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 14:29:07
Guest

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

He said he was lucky enough to live in a place in Germany with lots of great guitarists and singers and dancers, so obviously he sees the Forum as comprised of a bunch of wanabee tossers... wheras he and his friends are where the real action is.


Hey Ron

I live in not in ersatz Germany, but in Cádiz, surrounded by the REAL thing. This does not make me feel superior. I contribute little because my interest is in cante rather than guitar but appreciate the forum and its contributers. Still, another chance, in light of his post, seems like not a bad idea.

Sean
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 15:55:19
Guest

RE: Where is our moderator? (in reply to Thomas Whiteley

I vote yes. Give peace a chance. And this forum is strong enough to deal with this.

Anders

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2005 19:52:17
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