RE: flamenco body styles and bracing-where to start

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: << < 1 [2] 3 > >>

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Steve Wright)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Steve Wright

quote:

Air is the medium by which vibrations are transferred to our ear and heard as sound

Yes, this is easily forgotten when we play acoustic instruments. However, sit in a studio and monitor a thumping bass line and your hair will move if the levels are up high. This is the basis of the sound travel and vibration as Jeff neatly points out.

The point here is that the guitar pumps air, and this is characterized as the top moves up and down when the guitar is played. Air always carries sound if a sound is made, but I feel the issue here is about the top pumping air, is it not?

Or am I missing something?

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 26 2011 23:35:03

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

the issue here is about the top pumping air

Yes, the top is moving air. Put your guitar on the carpet and place heavy books on it so the top is compressed and the back. Play the strings - and the sound is dampened - the quality and volume is not there - but the rest of the guitar and strings are also moving air. My understanding is that the louder guitar is usually the guitar with a thinner top - which takes more skill to produce and also needs to be looked after carefully as it is fragile. The thinner top can resonate more easily, but it's sound will depend on the type of wood, the age, the growth rings etc, etc, etc and many more etc's.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 0:05:37

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

My point is that by normal definitions of a pump
"1. A machine or device for raising, compressing, or transferring fluids."
the guitar fails to comply
At the lowest note on the guitar the top is moving up and down 82 times a second with a very small amount of air leaving and entering the soundhole each time.
Does not sound like much of a pump to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 0:21:42

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Of course a guitar pumps both air, and vibrations that travel through the air. I suppose having a soundhole means that the top is actually freer to move because it can get the air inside the guitar out of the way when it wants to move in, and suck air back in when it's pushing out. So I guess all the "air pumping" is happening in the immediate vicinity of the guitar itself. I guess the main thing I'm still wondering about is how you can separate "air movement" from "vibrations" and how the two interact with each other. Inside the soundbox it seems like they are basically the same thing.
When you tap on a guitar top, there is definitely air being pushed out of the soundhole, which to me is also accompanied by sound. As you're tapping, you will hear the sound louder and fuller the closer your ear is to the soundhole as opposed to somewhere else on the top, and as I mentioned you can smell the air coming out. Granted this may not qualify the guitar as an "air pump" in the literal sense of the word.

This is somewhat unrelated but anyone who has messed around with doing Chladni patterns on an assembled guitar will know that certain resonances can only be stimulated by putting the driver (speaker) over the soundhole, such as the "main air mode" or Helmoholtz resonance. Also the main top resonance is much easier to drive from the soundhole. So at least the lower frequencies are more responsive to vibrating the air inside the guitar than to vibrating the top itself. The higher modes of the top are almost always impossible to drive from the soundhole but work by holding the speaker over the guitar top at certain spots.

Thinking about all this reminds me of how incredibly complex a system the guitar is... but I definitely gain something from these little luthier chats, even if it is accompanied by a headache

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 0:31:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I think its nice to understand the science of it but the end result is always going to be how the guitar is finessed at the very end of its construction process.

There are many ways to build a guitar but I like to take what I believe is the best sound and design for my own preference, and then work with it toward making a better impression, if I can.

Its crazy to try and create a model that excels beyond what we already have, if we work to improve the voice and playability with the existing European patterns that come from the old masters.

Improvements can be made if we are patient enough to work out the details. By taking the best of several types, we can move mountains with our knowing that somehow it can be done.

I've taken a Miguel Rodriguez design and made it sound like a Santos, to some extent, but louder and more robust. Strut to top manipulations are essential for most all guitar builders who want to create their own sounds. This particular guitar is quite breathy and quick, with a solid tone.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 3:46:19

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

Thinking about all this reminds me of how incredibly complex a system the guitar is

Yes! My brother-in-law has a couple of Banjo's and he was playing them and explaining different styles and sounds. With that he removes the back of the Banjo, which is a rather solid piece of wood. The Banjo then becomes somewhat mellow in it's sound and has less volume. This reminded me that the back of the guitar is not only vibrating, it is reflecting sound and has a distinct influence on the sound of the guitar.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 10:29:44

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I should not even get into this, but first of all I vehemently second the opinion that a guitar is not an air pump. If you had to give the acoustic guitar a mechanical designation of some type it would probably be closer to a diaphragm and even then its too complex to be simply that.

Second, just to clarify, sound waves are not 'born on the wind' or moving air, sound waves are pressure waves moving through the air, which is different than moving great quantities of air. Sound moves through air space the way waves move through water. Waves are created by a displacement of air or water or other medium and as a result of that displacement pressure waves are created. When those pressure waves reach your inner ear they vibrate the tiny delicate diaphragm mechanisms of your inner ear and nerves carry those vibrations to your brain where they are decoded and reconstructed as sound.

When the bottom of the ocean moves and drops several feet because one tectonic plate slides across another it creates a subduction zone. Water is displaced, but clearly not pumped anywhere. The resulting disparity in pressure causes movement in the form of a wave which moves rapidly through the water column, but does not move all the water at the speed in which the wave itself is moving.

A guitar top is a lot like this ocean bottom subduction zone scenario in that the top moves and creates pressure waves and those waves travel through the air as bumps of pressure. The air is not pumped from one place to the other even though from an anecdotal stand point it may seem that way.

The way to think about this is to consider that the speed of sound at sea level is 768 miles per hour. So unless your guitar is moving air at 768 miles per hour past your face, it's not acting as a pump to push air as fast as the sound moves, nor is the sound itself being moved by air. What is happening _in reality_ { and i know a select few of you don't seem to like to think in terms of reality and guitar making or that guitar making has any relationship to reality} is that the guitar is working as a movable diaphragm to make pressure waves which _move through_ the medium of air.

Any questions?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 21:18:25

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

the guitar is working as a movable diaphragm to make pressure waves which _move through_ the medium of air.

Can't argue with that and I don't think anybody was. But as usual there are other interesting facets to the discussion.
When I tap on a guitar top I can literally feel air blowing on my face out of the soundhole. To me this constituted "pumping" in the bicycle pump sense but on a small scale, even if it is just pumping back and forth... but I can easily abandon that particular word as it seems to have offended certain people (?).
I think it's pretty obvious to anybody that no liquids are being pumped, and that air is not literally hitting you in the face in a way that you can feel when you listen to a guitar. But there is definitely air movement in and around the guitar which seems inseparable from vibrations, although it may be a secondary factor.

The thing about removing the back of the banjo is interesting, I've wondered what would happen if you were able to do that with a guitar.
Exactly what the back is "doing" is definitely up for debate.

Here's an interesting point from Canadian luthier John Park's site:

"If you had taken the 12″ speaker from a guitar amp and eliminated the cabinet, you would find that no sound below about 500 Hz [cycles per second] would come out. The reason is that any sound wave coming forward from the cone would be sucked into the vacuum created on the back side – unless the cone reverses direction before it can get there. Thus, without some sort of baffle to isolate the pressures, the air around the speaker just churns about inaudibly under about 500 Hz ."

So do "sound waves" have the same property as the air they travel through in that they move at the same speed and can be sucked back/canceled out? I guess the analogy to waves moving through water is a good one. When you drop a rock into the water, there is a lot of water churning around immediately near the rock, but it sends out ripples that don't really *move* the water they're passing through very much. Still the amount of water that's moved initially determines the amount of ripple that results.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 22:19:09

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I think I'm going to go to my girlfriends house and pump myself full of Lillet and take a nap.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 27 2011 23:57:44

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

When you tap on a guitar top especially on a bridge you are applying a (relatively) high anplitude low frequency impulse which moves the guitar top inwards and pushes a small amount of air out the soundhole.
This may be of interest in determining the top mobility but does not really show what is happening when the strings are driving the top

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 0:58:57

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

So do "sound waves" have the same property as the air they travel through in that they move at the same speed and can be sucked back/canceled out?

Sound travels at a certain speed...........the speed of sound......when guitars go faster than the speed of sound they break the sound barrier and cause a Paco de Lucia Boom.

The fastest guitar ever created was the A-11 Blackbird and it was not made by Conde' it was made by Lockheed. Just more guitar history facts.

The Nino Ricardo Doppler effect is called that after the great guitarist Nino Ricardo- Doppler who could run super fast while he played and he could warp the sound of the guitar and slow the compas down as he passted you by to make it sound like a French ambulance in a cheap New Wave film.

Has anyone here ever taken basic aerospace classes or physics in high school to learn what a sound wave is and how fast sound travels through air? This is all Newtonian physics and is not theory or newfangled or anything, it's all basic knowledge and there's no reason to make **** up about guitars, because they do obey the laws of Newtonian physics.

Just sayin'

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 2:19:16

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Sound travels at a certain speed...........the speed of sound

Great job

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 3:14:03

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I think the point still is, that the top is pumping air, as this is an accepted term that everyone understands. The Spaniards say the frets grow but everyone knows that the fret board shrinks. Again, these are accepted terms that we understand.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 3:16:13

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The extent of acceptance of the belief that a guitar is pumping air does not make it correct or even a useful model

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 4:06:27

Steve Wright

Posts: 120
Joined: May 11 2011
From: Scotland Fife UK

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

The Spaniards say the frets grow but everyone knows that the fret board shrinks

Are you trying to say that it is my waist that is growing and not my clothes that are shrinking? Pumps are said to only pump fluid and gas - yet air is a gas and pumps are used to put air into tyres or to supply air to a patient. "If" a guitar "moves air" it either pumps or fans air. However, it is a poor "Pump" design and I would not recommend it, as pumps usually have some way of maintaining the pressure of the air it pumps.

I think perhaps this thread should be transcribed and made into a serious radio programme. Where else could we hear of the Nino Ricardo Doppler effect and the Paco de Lucian Sound Boom all in the same topic. I did once try the Nino Ricardo Doppler effect in my friends open roof car in the late 70's, playing the drums while he drove around a seaside town. Problem was, I couldn't hear the Ricardo Doppler effect. Cloning wasn't available then so I couldn't stand on the street at the same time as playing the drums in the car. So I'm sorry I can't tell you how the Doppler effect on the drums compares to the guitar.

_____________________________

Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión
Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi

http://www.youtube.com/user/FusionMusic1000

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 12:45:09

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

pumping

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 12:57:57

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Steve Wright)

Like I said, the Spanish cultural word is "Pump." The frets grow, and other cultural aspects. I can remember when flip flops were called thongs; not any more, as words seem to change with each generation. But for practical purposes, we have a set rule to follow with this art, regardless of the scientific mindset.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 16:32:53

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

The extent of acceptance of the belief that a guitar is pumping air does not make it correct or even a useful model

Hear, hear.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 17:18:52

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Sound travels at a certain speed...........the speed of sound

Not "certain". It is variable. The sound speed in steel is something like 5000-6000 m/s!
Alot of discussion goes into guitars, but strings are often overlooked (i dont mean the "what strings do you use" threads. I mean more or less scientific information on how different parameters of the string change the sound in what way.)

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 17:47:11

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

But for practical purposes, we have a set rule to follow with this art, regardless of the scientific mindset.

To have a set technical language to describe how a particular discipline or subject works can be an ossified or fossilized idiomatic cliche'. We cast new metaphors and it's the way that we break free of the same patterns of thinking.

We don't have any set rules or modes of explaining guitar making, except those imposed by people who want to subjugate the thinking processes of others. Everyone is free to describe the process with creativity and succinctness while being personal. To perpetuate misinformed anecdotal information or terms which describe what guitars do is lazy analysis. The truth is that nobody really completely knows what guitars do, even those who study them through scientific method so it's free world as to how to talk about them.

Eventually through inventing new terms and breaking apart fosslized incorrect terms and ideas we might gain more insight about how guitars work.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 18:04:53

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, when somebody makes as much off one guitar as you do in a year, you might want to at least TRY to understand their thinking process

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 18:43:08

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I suppose you're right. I should pay more attention to cliche' and shop worn figures of speech, but instinctively I'm a maverick and I tend to get all mavericky up in there.

You know there's a lot of truth to what Sarah Palin said about Paul Revere warning the British, but the American public is in denial about the truth. Since SHE said it it must be true. So I'm just trying to do my small part to be mavericky and make sure we can 'misinformate' one another. Even though I know this whole mavericky thing is really played out I still think it's ubersalient to be repetitively vigilant about historicality.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 18:50:17

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to estebanana)

I seek a fairly simplistic way of life; if it is not immoral, illegal, or fattening, then I try and leave things alone, unless they have a tendency to completely upset my clear understanding with the topic at hand.

I went through this with my own fine tuning process until some other builders tried it and confirmed their own success with it.

It truly amazes me that people are so indignant of things they know nothing about, and argue for the sake of just arguing points when they really don't make much difference for a better finished product.

I say this with respect, with the belief that all of us can make a difference if we put our expertise together to find the ultimate way to produce a guitar.

I just happen to think that traditional values are part of cultural exchange and feel that this is showing respect to the builders that have gone before us. In other words, why change it if everyone understands what it means?

The term, "Pumping air" is not supposed to be a scientific explanation but a cultural anomaly.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 20:36:42

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom this is not about you or your "method" of tuning braces. Don't try to make it about you.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 20:52:28

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to XXX)

quote:

Not "certain". It is variable. The sound speed in steel is something like 5000-6000 m/s!
Alot of discussion goes into guitars, but strings are often overlooked (i dont mean the "what strings do you use" threads. I mean more or less scientific information on how different parameters of the string change the sound in what way.)

Since guitars broadcast sound through the medium of air I cite the speed of sound through air at sea level. How's that.

Look up Alan Carruth's website, he's got some information posted about string science. Look under Acoustics, it's called String Theory. PDF 's

One of the most interesting things about the sting is the string excursion and how that path is not as straight forward as you may think. You would think the string moves back and forth on an equal arch, but no it moves in a strange back and forth movement and is initiated by plucking the string at one end of it's length. If you read his article he explains this. He did not discover this, but it's a very important part of how the string swings through space and has an effect on how the finger board is created to take this effect into consideration.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 20:55:17

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

It used to be a common belief that the world was flat, Sure made it convenient for map making.

I do not speak Spanish so I have no idea what the spanish terms for top movement are. I do not believe we should be like the Hatter in "Alice in Wonderland" who said something like "Words mean what I want them to mean"

Whether someone can build a great guitar or command a high price for it is irrelevant to whether they understand the physics, mechanics and acoustics of a guitar.
It is absolutely not necessary for being a good builder.

But once you start writing books and teaching I do believe you have a greater responsibility to avoid spouting scientific garbage.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 21:04:33

DoctorX2k2

Posts: 211
Joined: Jun. 14 2006
From: Quebec City, Canada

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Jeff Highland)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeff Highland

My point is that by normal definitions of a pump
"1. A machine or device for raising, compressing, or transferring fluids."
the guitar fails to comply
At the lowest note on the guitar the top is moving up and down 82 times a second with a very small amount of air leaving and entering the soundhole each time.
Does not sound like much of a pump to me.

Actually, it sounds pretty much like a pump.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 21:08:20

estebanana

Posts: 9353
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to DoctorX2k2)

quote:

Actually, it sounds pretty much like a pump.

The point that trying to be made is that the guitar top is a wave generator not a pump. Any pumping action is a byproduct of the intention to make sound waves. It's never been proven that more or less "pumping action" makes a better or worse guitar.

You can have a guitar that move greater amounts of air than another guitar an it's not a better guitar. What is being contested is the _purely anecdotal wisdom_ that guitars are pumps, which leads to the _false assumption_ that more pumping is better.

The guitar creates compression waves in the medium of air. If it creates wind or moving air close to itself this would not be what makes the guitar better or worse. This air movement dissipates very soon after it leaves the guitar. It's not a very effective pump.

So essentially this conversation is about a challenge to a widely held anecdotal opinion about whether a guitar is or is not pump. Some say it is and are unwilling to look at the issue from another point of view. So my thought if we have to move forward in guitar making we don't have to tow the old line and stick together. Group confluence stunts growth of inquiry in this case.

Can't we be individuals and dare to think further than those who came before us? If we all thought about the it the same way no one would have ever invented double tops or Torres would not have invented the modern guitar in the first place. Challenge may be offensive, so be it. Let the information be said and fall where it may.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 21:23:35

Jeff Highland

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Tom Blackshear

The term, "Pumping air" is not supposed to be a scientific explanation but a cultural anomaly

There is actually a fair bit of truth in that statement.
Calling the guitar an air pump is like telling our children about the Easter Bunny so they don't miss out on chocolate.
But don't we deserve to be treated like adults and told the truth rather than Dogma.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 28 2011 22:41:47

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: flamenco body styles and bracing... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

The real question is will this thread get locked or just drown itself in self-righteousness.
Honestly, I had no idea that "the guitar is an air pump" was a widely held belief, and from this conversation it really doesn't seem like it is. I don't think anybody is taking it that literally anyway or claiming that that's all it is, as far as I know.
I also don't think that it makes one damn bit of difference in the way that anybody builds, plays, or buys guitars. It's just one way of thinking about things.
The one person here who displays the most closed-mindedness and fascistic tendencies is the same as always

totally predictable
Taking a reasonable debate way too seriously and posting long diatribes on the verge of tears over the "misuse" of some word or other. It kind of sucks because it destroys the ability of other people to have a reasonable and interesting discourse...

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 29 2011 0:38:57