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Sacrilege Doitsujin. I would much rather listen to Paco Pena than that other Paco any day. Good for you HolyEvil. I've enjoyed Paco Penas' performances and if you like real flamenco (not that fusion stuff) I know you will too.
My understanding was that Flamenco song and dance was actually a beautiful fusion - in fact, the most outstanding fusion music passed on by oral tradition that started in Southern Spain around Andalucia. Because Andalucia is in the Mediteranean, it's impossible to isolate the musical influences of Moorish, Byzantine, Phoenecian, Greek, Jewish, Roman & Egyptian styles from the Andalusian style. They say that with several hundred years of Moorish domination, during which Moorish and Jewish music was played, that these styles would have left a lasting impact on southern Spanish musical forms.
That understanding leads me to think that Flamenco is Evolving. (Well, you all like to think you are evolving) For it to Fuse, it takes on yet more and more influences and disciplines. I think it is important that people like Paco Pena preserve the tradition, but equally important that people like Paco De Lucia explore other horizons. My mind is drawn to fusion and that's why I like Flamenco. I appreciate the skills of a classical player like but it doesn't motivate me like Flamenco and I certainly hated it when Segovia slated the Flamenco style. I think if it hadn't had been for Flamenco guitars Segovia may have never have played a guitar. Flamenco drove him to seek new boundaries, but then he looked down his nose at the Gypsy player.
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Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi
"real flamenco" ?.. Real flamenco might come from the heart. Pacos Penas playing is sterile. So, it can´t be real flamenco. Is there any definition of real flamenco? I never came across any that made sense.
Paco Pena is so strange... He is 40-50 years too late with this style. Even the traditional style became much more beautiful till now than the music he uses to play.
EDIT: Steve Wright. Wisely spoken. I agree completely.
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
If I would be in Australia I would rather go for kangaroo-boxing or a digeridoo-concert than to a Pena concert.
that's a bit harsh
that may be but he always surrounds himself with great talent so that is a great reason to go weather you like his style or not....and anyway he keeps his solo's to a very minimum and most of the time there's 3 guitarists playing together...just straight forward good flamenco accompaniment for cante and dance...if anyone does anything fancy is one of the other guitarists sure there's other guitarists i prefer over Paco too, but he does do good flamenco shows and deserves respect ...well from those who wanna give it anyway...
just some of the names that hes brought out here on tours before they became famous in their own right.. David Palomar, Sara Baras, Belen Fernandez, Ramon Martinez, losada brothers etc etc....
Paco Pena's talent is knowing how to surround himself with other talent and makes good shows..
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Steve Wright)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Steve Wright
Because Andalucia is in the Mediteranean, it's impossible to isolate the musical influences of Moorish, Byzantine, Phoenecian, Greek, Jewish, Roman & Egyptian styles from the Andalusian style.
Interesting about the Jewish bit. I find Klezmer music to be one of the very first in terms of melodic richness ( ranging flamenco, Irish folk, Klezmer and traditional African choruses as melodically most extensive ethnic genres ); and now hearing that Jewish music too ought to have contributed to flamenco, I can imagine how it might have helped for the great melodic variety in flamenco.
Ruphus
PS: Paco Pena:
One shouldn´t confuse perfection with sterility. Could be him being a bit exacting, but there sure have been gigs and recordings of him that are as elatingly beautiful as it gets.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
"real flamenco" ?.. Real flamenco might come from the heart. Pacos Penas playing is sterile. So, it can´t be real flamenco. Is there any definition of real flamenco? I never came across any that made sense.
What a contradiction! First you state that "Paco Pena's playing is so sterile. So, it can't be real flamenco." Then you ask if there is "any definition of real flamenco?" and finally you conclude that you never came across any that made sense. Yet, you are quick to identify Paco Pena's playing as not being "real flamenco."
Paco Pena plays real flamenco. Paco de Lucia plays real flamenco. It is all a matter of taste. I much prefer to listen to Paco Pena playing the more traditional form of "real flamenco" than to Paco de Lucia playing the more "fusion" variety of "real flamenco." In fact, I would rather listen to Nino Ricardo and Sabicas than either of the two Pacos. But they are all first-rate flamenco guitarists, and they all play real flamenco. (I do not ascribe to the notion that Paco de Lucia is "God," as do some on this forum.) You can argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but in this debate, it all comes down to opinion and taste.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
1. Paco Pena´s playing is sterile yet I didn´t state that its not flamenco. 2. All people who believe that old flamenco is "real" and flamenco of today is not real, shut up, leave the thread and educate yourself about flamenco. 3. You can like both, old and actual flamenco and beside of that, don´t like Pena's (or any other perfect) playing. Coz it´s up to everyones personal taste. 4. Paco de Lucia is a baller.
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Doitsujin)
Peña plays superb Flamenco guitar.
It is the Flamenco he grew up with as a kid and the style he loves.
What the hell else do you expect the guy to do except be good at what he does?
He's about the same age as PdL, so they both grew up in a similar environment.
OK, so PdL took it much further.
Not many British bands of the 60s share the same fame as the Beatles, so does that mean to say they are rubbish and not worth listening to??
Peña plays a superb concert, totally authentic stuff with a great sound and a nifty technique.
He DOESN'T do Modern stuff. He's not interested in playing like Diego del Morao..
But he is a great snapshot of how great Flamenco sounded in Andalucia in the 50's 60's if you have the interest to hear it.
Jeez..musicians are still putting on concerts of Classical music, some of it hundreds of years old and they don't play it in the style of Lady Gaga because that's the latest thing.
well its just taste, but of course Doit is right in saying Pena is hopelessly outdated. Funny about that fusion comment is that Pena IS doing some Venezuelan fusion in his recent program, as advertised in the Video in the link.
I'd be interested in your opinions on Eduardo Niebla. In your estimation, is he a flamenco player? Is he worthy of note? I like his compositions (most of them) but I thought he used an unorthodox approach to some of his picking, something that I have used in the past. This is fusion music, so be prepared for a shock if you don't like fusion - but it's the type of fusion that seems to be acceptable to mainstream listeners. I like the use of Tabla in it.
I think describing Paco Pena as "hopelessly outdated" really does his music an injustice.
I prefer to think of his playing as timeless.
And "sterile"? Well, we're talking about music, and your opinion, Doit, is of course valid - but as you admit, it is subjective. His strong technique, combined with that Gerundino, and dry 70's recordings sound anything but sterile...
It's earthy, raw, powerful...but I just don't hear it as sterile...
i think it's a sound that puts overly sanitised modern recordings to shame.
I've recently rediscovered Paco Pena's work. If you think him sterile (and you can be bothered!) check out his first album, or anything he recorded in the 70's - he sounds like his guitar is about to burst into flames.
I love his playing. Of course, he has a great respect for tradition - however he does his own thing with it.
There's the myth that he only plays Nino Ricardo and Montoya falsetas. Not true - he often quotes them ( as does every other guitarist out there). However, he composed some fantastic stuff of his own.
In fact, he has composed some real masterpieces - if you haven't heard these, you may want to check them out: Leyenta (petenera), Alegrias de cordoba, Mantilla Y peina (guajiras), Clara Fuente (granainas), Acera del rio (Solea), La lola - if you like Fantasia flamenca-era PDL - you'll love this stuff.
And Ron, I'm not sure that it's fair to call his music a snapshot of the 50's/60's. Yes, he has a strong traditional flamenco sound ( but that's what I love about it!), but his playing evolved - just listen to the live album he released a couple of years ago. It's a solo set played live a Wigmore Hall in London - there's more modern harmonies and subtleties - he plays with an elegance and refinement that is particularly modern.
But again, a strong solo set - completely unaccompanied – by a man approaching 70 is something to be admired.
I heard the guy on BBC Radio 3 a couple weeks ago. he gave an interview and played a few pieces in the studio. He sounded amazing. He was articulate, deeply respectful of other flamencos, and truly loves his art.
Rather than bitching on internet forums, he's devoted his life to creating some beautiful guitar music and being a humble ambassador for the art.
well its just taste, but of course Doit is right in saying Pena is hopelessly outdated.
lol you guys are naughty
we pretty much like the same modern guitarists but personally i agree with Ron and Ramirez and everyone else...just cause its not modern dosent mean its worthless or dosent deserve respect...
weather its him or the guys around him...his shows are great flamenco shows period...him aside hes always got great musiceans, singers, dancers etc...
Paco Pena shamelessly wears the mantle of hopelessly outdated. He is not trying to be anything other than a very traditional flamenco player. I think there is something worthy of respect there. It's not like he is a charlatan. He is a man who has done his homework. Perhaps his playing does not make a statement like PDL, but he is not some flashy Manitas de Plata in and out of compas.
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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
I'd be interested in your opinions on Eduardo Niebla
i've always enjoyed Eduardo's playing and compositions ...still have a cassette of him and antonio forcione... never really thought of him as flamenco, more a fusion of jazz/flamenco/indian and north african music...jazzindoafrofusion? also enjoy his album with adel salmeh to this day...
Paco Pena? as someone who lives in australia am grateful he has consistenly made the pilgramage here for the last 2 and a half decades....we rarely get anything else from OS. always a good show...never really about Paco Pena at all IMO....has bought some great performers with him...he does his solo piece and the rest about his featured performers...seems a humble gesture... as a player...such clean and precise technique..not my first choice to listen to but always a good experience... new show brings a tres and mandolin player with cuban influences so maybe he's warming to the idea of fusion
i dont buy into the arguement of something being dated...more like a reminder of what is being forgotten...perhaps...
We see an old man, wrinkled skin, clutching his walking stick, catching his breath as he sits on a wall, looking up at you as if to be pitied. He dismiss him as a man who has no skills and has nothing to offer, yet he has a life-time of experience. He knows how the town looked 70 years ago, how people interacted, what was important then and how the music affected him. I spent a few years in oral history in Scotland and it has had a lasting impression on me. I'm always interested in peoples stories of what it was really like when they were young.
As a musician, in order to make a success of it, we have to find a niche. Paco Pena has obvioulsy found a niche, is faithful to it and has a good following. If his playing is "a snapshot of the 50's/60's" I am glad to be able to use that as a reference to times past. In order for me to make my own mark on music, I need a reference and I need to be different. However, Flamenco is much older than Paco Pena and so it begs the question, have we lost the so-called "True" flamenco song? I think we all know the answer is yes. The flamenco of the 50's & 60's is far different to the early flamenco form. For me, the sound of flamenco from the 50's to our day is what interests me. That is my taste. It is wide - it is very much towards "World Music". I can't hold a candle to Paco Pena, so I have to respect his art form and thank his for preserving a flamenco sound that could easily be lost.
This is why I asked opinions on Eduardo Niebla - as I think of him as a fusion player who is obviously very much a passionate flamenco lover. I like the term used "jazzindoafrofusion".The other thing I like about Paco Pena is that he has made extensive efforts to tour a wide range of countries.
"sterile"? I think our taste differs according to how our brains process music. Most of my family find it hard to listen to my favourite music, because it contains improvisation. They want things to be regular. However, over the 30 years that I have been married, my wife has progessed from the Bay City Rollers to people like Juan Martin, Eduardo Niebla, Paco De Lucia even some of John Mc Laughlin's material etc etc. For those who don't like things to be regular, perhaps an artist like Pena is not what puts you on fire, but he still deserves respect, because I think most of us cannot play like him. I respect some metal guitarists - I don't necessarily like the music they play.
Pat Metheny - playing a simple song, putting his stamp on it Yes, okay, it's not flamenco, but it's good.
What is Paco Pena's first album? A man who respects other flamencos deserves respect.
_____________________________
Rhythm, grace & passion. El ritmo, gracia & la pasión Be the change you want to see in this world - Gandhi
Peña plays superb Flamenco guitar. Not many British bands of the 60s share the same fame as the Beatles, so does that mean to say they are rubbish and not worth listening to??
Not wanting to hijack the thread, just couldn´t resist to throw in two examples I love: Badfinger, Procol Harum! -
Besides, back to Paco Pena: He was playing Latin American pieces already in the seventies ( or earlier ).
I listened to sabicas again for the first time today after exploring more modern material lately,which I also like. But I gotta Sabicas is still my favourite by along shot even if it is outdated.. Its just what I personally like. Ive listened to Pena Quite a bit as well but too me he's like Sabicas just not as good!!
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
1. Paco Pena´s playing is sterile yet I didn´t state that its not flamenco.
Sorry, Doit, but your own words tell the story. On 13 June, you wrote: "Paco Pena's playing is sterile. So it can't be real flamenco."
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
I listened to sabicas again for the first time today after exploring more modern material lately,which I also like. But I gotta Sabicas is still my favourite by along shot even if it is outdated.. Its just what I personally like. Ive listened to Pena Quite a bit as well but too me he's like Sabicas just not as good!!
Exactly! I would rather listen to Sabicas and Paco Cepero than the more modern "fusionists." But that is my own opinon of the field. The most anyone can say and be entirely accurate is: "I think...," or "In my opinion..." There is no over-arching, objective standard by which one artist can be said to be "the best," or even "better" than another. It is all a matter of subjective taste and opinion. Even if a majority of critics agree on one performer or another as being the best, or at least better than others, that too is a collective opinion, often shaped by the zeitgeist. It is not ground truth just because of numbers. And for those who think that Paco de Lucia is "God," as some on this forum have stated, my advice would be "get a life." I would certainly agree that Paco de Lucia in his prime was brilliant. But so was Sabicas, Nino Ricardo, Ramon Montoya, and others in their time. There will be others in the future who will be said to have surpassed even Paco de Lucia, but they will no more be "Gods" than he is.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Sorry, Doit, but your own words tell the story. On 13 June, you wrote: "Paco Pena's playing is sterile. So it can't be real flamenco."
...oh boy oh boy.... you still don´t understand.. Ok.. I will write the obvious ending of that sentence for you, for better understanding..The obvious ending, that is so damn obvious, that I was sure, that it is not needed to be written down. Well...maybe after subtracting my poor English-skills, the obviousness of that particular sentence falls a little bit below the sharp border of obviousness, that is needed, for an average intelligent person with good English knowledge, to be able to understand the obvious meaning of my statement...
Here we go,. =)
Old sentence--> "Paco Pena's playing is sterile. So it can't be real flamenco (X1)."
Obvious ending starting at position (X1): ", according to the nonsensical definition of "real" flamenco.
So, there is no contradiction at all. Escribano got it right. That could basically mean 2 things..
1: His intelligence is above the level of an average intelligent person with excellent English skills. That makes him understanding me perfectly and don´t need extra explanations.
2. He is a person with average intelligence, which would not allow him to understand my statement correctly, like you I suppose, but his excellent English skills as native speaker, evens out the slight reduction of obviousness of my obvious sentence, that is not entirely understandable without deep thinking for average intelligent persons with good English knowledge, to be able to understand my statement.
3. Or, he is just a baller with mad skills in understanding everything, that he gained from enjoying the joy of consuming my omniscience, that has been selflessly shared with the world, which waited for that ...so so.. hard, with my last 3826 posts over the last 6 years.
I think 1 is correct. ... Coz it would be totally impossible not to go bananas if one really would have read all of my 3826 posts. Well,... but it would have the positive side effect that you would have gained a deep understanding of everything!
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You just passed the second test of awesomeness that was hidden in my post of high-density-nonsense Escribano.. If you pass the other 10 you can have a room of my flat in the Olympus.
seems like i created some of the fuss, although i dont really understand why, coz its really just taste. with outdated i didnt mean its useless, or bad music. i just think it has passed its lifetime. it wasnt very special 50 yrs ago (unlike Sabicas), and today its even less special. well it doesnt inspire me. but its good for learning and building up repertoire maybe. id rather listening PDL playing traditional or even Antonio Rey playing traditional PDL falsetas on Youtube, as i recently discovered
man these PDL falsetas are just a classic. THIS is timeless music, not Paco Pena IMO
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: Paco Pena in Australia (in reply to Doitsujin)
quote:
...oh boy oh boy.... you still don´t understand.. Ok.. I will write the obvious ending of that sentence for you, for better understanding..The obvious ending, that is so damn obvious, that I was sure, that it is not needed to be written down. Well...maybe after subtracting my poor English-skills, the obviousness of that particular sentence falls a little bit below the sharp border of obviousness, that is needed, for an average intelligent person with good English knowledge, to be able to understand the obvious meaning of my statement...
Tsk, Tsk. A bit touchy, are we?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
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