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Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 - Entries
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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 RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Graham_B)
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Firstly, well done for having the guts to enter the dreaded challenge amigos.
Sorry if the comments sound pretty harsh, but personally I think that only harsh criticism really helps you get focussed, so apologies for the lack of sugar coating.
(That's the sort of criticism that I like to receive anyway.)
It was also a pretty difficult challenge this time in that there was no guideline piece to copy.
Anyway, I'm quite happy to receive any complaints from challengers who feel my comments are unjust, so don't feel intimidated or anything for heaven's sake.
That's what the Forum is about.
Anyway...scores out of 30...
Redwood:
I liked this....(though I thought the rasgueado a bit overdone..a little less violent would fit in better I think).
Confidently played and some very tasteful chords in the second sequence.
Very Flamenco sounding with the spirit of Malagueñas and set the mood nicely for a singer IMO.
(I'm not sure how much of a "beginner" you actually are?  )
Score:26
Elm:
The playing sounds a bit laboured to my ear and the tremelo needs some work.
I don't think a singer would thank you for the Verdiales ending.
Score:18
Rowan:
Pretty good technique, but the playing sounds a bit "fiddly" and goes nowhere.
Again, not an ending that would invite a singer to come in.
Score:20
Sugar Magnolia:
I'm not keen on the bluesy "slides". (Makes it sound like you're playing a Fender Strat or something.)
Tremelo not bad considering it's fairly difficult.
Ending a bit harsh and jarring IMO.
Score:18
Willow:
I actually quite like the OTT church echo ...makes it sound like the intro to a Saura film or something!
I personally don't care for the little ligado embellishments as I think they detract from the gravitas of the rest of the piece, but this is only my personal taste.
Good sensitivity and good ending for setting up a singer IMO.
Score: 24
Hornbeam:
Sounds a bit jarring and the music goes nowhere IMO.
That "tapping" thing sounds like a thing Carlos Montoya would do for a non-Flamenco audience. No likee.
Ending not good for a singer.
Score 12
Cedar:
Interesting start and good "first string arpegio", but a bit thrashy with the thumb downstrokes IMO...a bit more finesse I think would sound better.
Reasonable ending.
Score:20
Oak:
This sounds very timid and more like part of a solo, rather than a Malagueñas intro for a singer.
Play that in Spain for a Gitano singer and you could easily get stabbed IMO  .
Score:12
Anyway amigos, a good effort by everyone and I'm sure a "good cop" will be along in a minute.
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Date May 29 2011 17:18:57
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Andy Culpepper
Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Graham_B)
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First off I want to congratulate everyone for stepping up and showing some real creativity! I was suprised by how few of you went "by the book traditional". Considering the fact that, for many of you, this is probably the first time you've arranged/composed your own material I was impressed.
However, the flip side of that is that I think many of you tried to get TOO original and modern sounding and lost the essence of Malagueña! I would have liked to hear more characteristic phrases and chord sequences. In my opinion this should have been regarded more as an arrangement challenge, taking bits and pieces from the examples provided, than as an outright composition challenge.
I would have liked to hear more continuity in most of your ideas. An intro for a singer should tell a story with beginning, middle and end. Consider yourself the opening act in a way. It can be a meandering story, but it should always be aware of where it's going and how it's going to resolve in a way that emphatically states the essence of the palo and sets the stage for the cante. I think a lot of you had several ideas but no idea how to stitch them together into a story. In which case it would have been wise to fall back on more traditional ideas.
Redwood-
Great beginning but you lost a bit of steam in the second half and by the time you got to the resolution I felt that you lacked some conviction. But you set a nice mood and what you came up with would work very well in a solo piece. Tighten up those arpeggios.
Score: 22
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Elm-
You have some great ideas but some are a little difficult for you technically right now. You have to learn to express yourself in a Flamenco way, you seemed to have some trouble using your technique to create dramatic moments. But I can tell you pushed yourself and you have a passion for the music. I did not like the ending because it didn't create the right mood. Listen to the way a singer comes in por Malagueña, starting very softly "zee-ya zee-ya" on the notes F-E before starting a letra. Allow the singer to build up from what you have started instead of leading him or her in with a raucous energy.
Score: 19
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Rowan-
Again some nice ideas but you fizzled out and didn't know how to end it because you weren't telling a story. Also you didn't sound like you were sure if you wanted to make it rhythmic or not. You did your own thing on this but it didn't draw enough on the unique cadences and melodic ideas separate Malagueña from "noodling in A minor". But some of the effects you created on the treble strings were interesting, don't abandon those and try to develop them further.
Score: 18
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Sugar Magnolia-
Needs some tightening up in places, and more space in others. It sounds a little jumbled and lacks dynamics until the end. The tremolo was nice and the way you ended wasn't too bad. Listen to more Malagueñas and Flamenco in general and keep working on developing your ability to create tension and release through space, technique and dynamics.
Score: 17
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Willow-
You clearly have a handle on the typical chord voicings in Malagueña. In the second half, reign in some of those chord extensions because some of the notes are a little too "outside" and wreck the aire a little bit. But using the C# over the E7 chord is great. Awesome ending !!!! I'd say you definitely passed this challenge.
Score: 25
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Hornbeam-
A little chaotic but very gitano in some ways ;-). Unfortunately you didn't know how to end it and you made almost no literal references to Malagueña so I'd say it did not fulfill the goal of the challenge at all! You have some nice techniques present here.
Score: 10
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Cedar-
Wow!! I appreciate your tone and I'd be very curious to know where you acquired Ramon Montoya's guitar and microphone. You have some very confident and dynamic right hand technique but some of your melodic ideas in the beginning would benefit from a stronger fretting hand. I love your playing and I think Willow just beat you by a hair because of his/her beautiful simplicity and directness. You may be on a higher level technically but I think you tried to do a little bit too much and your cohesiveness suffered.
Score: 24
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Oak-
Nice mellow noodle you've got going on but it lacks the energy for Flamenco. But you did some research for this and you've got some good traditional phrases under your belt. I think this piece, if played with more conviction, could make a very nice solo piece but it's not great as an intro for a singer.
Score: 15
_____________________________
Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
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Date May 29 2011 22:09:01
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Neotriz
Posts: 143
Joined: Aug. 9 2010
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Graham_B)
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Before I submit my reviews, I just want to congratulate to those who are participating, both the entries and the judges, for their time. I know flamenco is an arduous art to master, but in the end, it's very rewarding.
I want to apologize that I wasnt able to enter this contest as I originally thought I
would--with school, it takes a bit of my practice time
That being said, here are my reviews for this contest. Note that I am putting my judgement to call and see my review as a constructive criticism--by all means, I am not putting anyone down.
I will be judging as follows:
10pts--"Aire" (the vibe of the palo) -- Basically, those this sound like Malaguena?
10pts--Technique-- was your technique well executed?
10pts--Creativity -- how creative were you to arrange a piece?
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Redwood
Aire- 9
Tech- 8
Creativity- 9
Total: 26
Beside the rasguedo that was a bit overdone in the beggining, I thought this well arranged piece. Very creative chords. Only thing I will say work on the subtle parts (eg. the legato), but other than that, well done.
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Elm
Aire- 7
Tech- 6
Creative- 7
Total: 20
Two things came to my mind
1)The tremolo needs some work. It needs to be more fluid
2) Dynamic- although it wasn't static, the volume didnt change much. Try to build tension/release in the play
As other pointed out, the ending was meh. Good work though
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Rowan
Aire-7
Tech- 7
Creative-8
Total: 22
I liked how you were going with the introduction. It had a sense of "story-telliing" vibe. However, it kinda got lost and didnt really finish it. Also, there was no cue for the singer to come in
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Sugar Magnolia
Aire-6
Tech-6
Creative-6
Total: 18
If this is your first time playing or haven't exposed to Malaguna enough, I thought it was pretty good. However, there alot of things you need to work on, mainly the techniques. You gotta be able to play with confidence, and that requires alot of repetition. Overall, well done
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Willow
Aire-9
Tech-8
Creative-9
Total: 26
I really liked the aire of this piece (maybe the reverb helped (?))
I thought this came will well packed--it had dynamics, flow, and a cue for the singer to come in. Very well done. Maybe toning down the reverb will help, since it tends to overmask your playing
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Hornbeam
Aire-5
Tech-6
Creative-6
Total: 17
I felt it was very static. Maybe relax a bit when you are playing. I wasnt big fan of the tapping. Plus, I felt it wasnt going anywhere. Brush on the techniques
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Cedar
Aire-7
Tech-8
Creative-8
Total: 23
Very old-school ish. Me likey. I thought the techniques was well executed. As I mentioned earlier, it felt very static--I feel the only element you are missing is to play more relaxed and embellish with dynamics and the aire. Well done
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Oak
Aire-5
Tech-6
Creative-5
Total: 16
I am sensing you got most of the idea from Juan Serrano's book (  ). As other pointed out, this contest was more towards the accompaniment of singer. Technique wise, brush up a bit. In addition, add more volume-dynamic....make tension and release it!!! like making love!!!!!
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Date May 30 2011 1:50:10
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Elie
Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Graham_B)
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I want to congratulate the challengers for their entries .. all of them were good and interesting .
judging a "composing challenge" is harder than a regular challenge .. because everyone plays different thing
I judged according to aire and technique ... maybe it is not fair as each one has different entry ... but I did my best to differentiate and my points went to the entries I liked most ... although I felt some of you guys are beyond the level of “ a beginner “
no hard feelings .. you can have your revenge when you get the opportunity to judge me in one of the upcoming challenges lol
Redwood : Man the chords at the beginning were not in the right place,
very good playing I think you’re an intermediate more than a beginner technically …
you have very good skills, and your piece fits the challenge very well, it flew very well and created a very lovely atmosphere
A13+ T12=25
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Elm : interesting work … but not suitable for cante in my opinion …
some techniques are really lagging your playing such as tremolo …
some ideas were repeated and that was boring little bit but overall that was a good job.
A11+ T11=22
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Rowan : very good , I really liked your playing … it started like something very interesting
and promising but then it fell apart … the ending ruined the whole mood ... but I was really amazed by your entry ...
A12+T12=24
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Sugar Magnolia : very nice try , but maybe little bit over your level … some strings sounded dull ,
you need to work on your technique and avoid posting an entry with mistakes , I think I caught 2-3 mistakes …
there is a clear lack of dynamics … but I think considering your technique you did a pretty good job.
A10+T9=19
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Willow: very good aire and techniques … the playing were very smooth and clear …
I felt you’re kinda trying to mix traditional with modern by using different chords combination …
it drove you little bit out of the mood … but you got your way back, well done.
A13+T13=26
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Hornbeam: nice try man … keep working on your technique …
the tapping wasn’t that flashy … I think you can do better than this …
you should have added some more ideas … because your playing was dull somehow
A7+ T6=13
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Cedar: very very nice … man you took me back to Gastor’s and Montoya’s times …
your sound is very authentic … but your techniques needs some work, very interesting entry.
A12+T11=23
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Oak : man very nice smooth and simple, but that could make the audience sleep … I like your traditional ideas
the E,G#,B,A,C,B,A,G,F,E sequence was nice to be added but to win you gotta do something special .. nice work.
A8+ T8=16
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so I think my vote goes to Willow as 1st, Redwood as 2nd, Rowan as 3rd
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http://www.youtube.com/user/GuitarristaAD
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Date May 30 2011 6:41:18
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xirdneH_imiJ
Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Elie)
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first of all congrats, secondly, my apologies because i could spend less time with judging as i originally intended...so there are less comments too...i felt Cedar and Willow stood out in this competition, and judging by their technique they should compete with the intermediates in the future...i gave them the same amount of points, Willow plays a bit better, but i liked Cedar's arrangement more...
Cedar - 28 points
Excellent, just minor technical mistakes, very traditional, very malaguena-ish...but I feel you're over the beginners' level and I'm looking forward to your future entries one category higher!
Elm - 21 points
It would've been great, but the Verdiales ending ruined it for me, all the tension built up before, for all of it to be released, so you left little for the singer...he wouldn't have liked you very much for that...i feel your playing is a bit tense, but have a good idea about how it should sounds...keep it up!
Hornbeam - 14 points
Unfortunately, you didn't make a whole lot of sense there musically and you tried to show that you're capable of doing different kinds of techniques...you should've chosen the ones you're most comfortable with and built something around those...the tapping was horrible, sorry...it sounds like you improvised this and didn't spend much time with it before recording...
Oak - 17 points
I felt like I was listening to a classical guitarist recording, it really lacked the power at places where it could've used some...but you did exactly what I'm recommending to Hornbeam, to build on your stronger points...still, the recording was a bit too long, which would've been okay if you had varied it more and added "more moods"...
Redwood - 22 points
Nice typical malaguena material, and you were consciously trying to play with the dynamics, but i felt you overdid it a bit...like a woman who starts yelling, then thinks a bit about her next sentence then yelling again etc. :)...so it was not flowing as well as it could have...still, you did a good job!
Rowan - 23 points
This was half an intro very well done, but if you had added the typical Am/G/F/E finish, you could've been a winner here...can't really say more, because i liked it very much, but it felt unfinished...in your case you left too much for the singer...
Super Magnolia - 22 points
Your right hand needs to be worked on, you're applying too much power...with your recording too i felt like it could've used some more variation, but i think it would've been an adequate intro for a singer...
Willow - 28 points
Too bad the recording was distorted, it was an excellent malaguena by someone obviously better than beginner level...
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Date May 31 2011 15:05:31
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paul.troutfisher
Posts: 161
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Danville, CA
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Ron.M)
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Congratulations Changue, your playing was amazing. You, and the others set the bar very high.
Thanks to Graham for running the show. He kept a tight ship.
And thanks to Ron, Andy, Kenzo, Elie, and Richard for judging.
I started playing classical guitar about four years ago at the ripe age of 44. I want to make custom classical&flamenco guitars when I retire - so thought it would be wise to be able to play them too :) Always wanted to play, but was never able to make the commitment or find the time. About one year ago I started working on Flamenco. Boy it's hard! I realize that I don't have any natural talent for playing, yet love it. I can't get over how addictive it is - it drives my family nuts!
I really enjoyed the challenge. It forced me to focus on one song and try to nail it (didn't quite get there). Judge's comments were great - however, I'm a bit worried about getting stabbed whilst visiting Spain (Ron's comment) ;-)
Recording yourself is NOT for the faint of heart :) I kind of ran out of time and had to get it done in the last three hours. Getting a clean run was impossible - I kept screwing up at a different place each time :( Had one real clean one going and was right near the end - when... my youngest runs in the room shouting Dad Dad. In retrospect should have just used that one :)
Can't wait for the next challenge.
Paul
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troutie
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Date Jun. 1 2011 13:58:51
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: Beginners Challenge Summer 2011 ... (in reply to Graham_B)
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Wow, it finished , and well done to "Willow"' . Really I couldn't wait to hear what you other guys had done , out of curiosity more than anything else , and when I heard the first few entries I thought ,"Boy , am I in trouble here, this is gonna be hard to beat".
I did my own judging, as an experiment and I did pick out Willow as a winner , and I liked the sound of the reverb as it reminded me of some 50's recordings I still have on cassette.
I had it figured that the winner would be Willow and Rowan would be second, which would leave me to fight it out against Elm and Cedar ( both good entries) .
So I was kinda surprised I did so well against all that lot.
Mine was in the end copied , (or ripped off !!) from a guitarrist called Luis Miguel Manzano who plays with a girl called Caridad Vega, found on you tube and it is very similar I just changed some bits that I couldn't play well to make it more sort of mine..
That was the best I could do and it was my first Malagueña so I was relying a lot on research and old recordings...and some judges liked it more than others , thats only to be expected.
So thanks to all the people involved in the organisation and judging so that we can learn.
Now its back to the drawing board but I live to enter another day ....!!!
Any last words of advice would be ............. se aprende tocar , tocando...
(one learns to play , Playing..)
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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
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Date Jun. 1 2011 19:02:35
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