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RE: Taxes, Corruption
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Alatriste)
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kate
Wow, so a military coup, backed by landowners and the church, overthrows a democratically elected Republic, instigates a bloody 3 year civil war and installs a military dictatorship which continued to murder and imprison any opposition and you call them the good guys !
Revisionist history is the most used tool of the Left. Fortunately not all fall for the ruse.
Your statement regarding "revisionist history" refers to Kate's statement, quoted above. I know something about the Spanish Civil War, and I would be interested in just what part of Kate's above-cited statement you consider "revisionist," i.e., at variance with the historical record. Could you elaborate?
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 18 2011 1:13:05
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
history revision is done by the survivor - regardless of their political affiliation.
This is true of Spain where, until the recent law passed in 2007 La Ley De Memoría, schools taught a biased and revisionist history, ie Franco's version.
Consequently the true history of the Civil War and Franco era has mostly been researched written and published by foreign historians, so not the winners or survivors but academics.
I have a first class honours degree in Spanish Studies from North London and Granada University. The professors who I studied with and under are many but the key figures for my understanding of this period, the 2nd. Republic, Civil War and Franco's dictatorship are Helen Oppenheimer, Paul Preston, Hugh Thomas, Raymond Carr, Ian Gibson and José Luis Heredía Maya.
I look forward to Alatriste citing his sources.
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
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Date Jun. 18 2011 9:20:44
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Kate)
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quote:
I have a first class honours degree in Spanish Studies from North London and Granada University. The professors who I studied with and under are many but the key figures for my understanding of this period, the 2nd. Republic, Civil War and Franco's dictatorship are Helen Oppenheimer, Paul Preston, Hugh Thomas, Raymond Carr, Ian Gibson and José Luis Heredía Maya.
I look forward to Alatriste citing his sources.
Among the historians of the Spanish Civil War cited above, I would particularly recommend Hugh Thomas. I not only await Alatriste citing his sources; I particularly look forward to his detailing just what in your statement was "revisionist," and at variance with the historical record, at least as he understands it.
For the record, I do not consider myself a man of the left or the right.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 18 2011 11:06:03
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Alatriste)
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quote:
How laughable. Typical response of a Leftist to bring up Hitler.
Alatriste, in the case of the Spanish Civil War, it is not a "typical response of a Leftist" to bring up Hitler. Have you ever heard of the Condor Legion? Hitler was involved from the very beginning of the civil war. On 27 July 1936, Hitler sent Franco 26 German fighter aircraft, and he sent 30 Junker 52s from Berlin and Stuttgart to Berlin and Morocco, in support of the Nationalists.
In September 1936, Lt. Col. Walther Warlimont was sent as Commander and advisor to Franco. Warlimont brought air power to bear against the Republicans, which initially consisted of three squadrons of Junker 52 bombers, three squadrons of HE-51 fighters, two squadrons of HE-99 and HE-70 reconnaissance bombers, and a couple of seaplane squadrons. The Condor Legion eventially came under the command of General Hugo Sperrle, and was responsible only to Franco. Sperrle obtained additional aircraft, including Henkels, and the German contingent eventually totalled 12,000 men. In September 1937, the Germans in the Condor Legion experiemented with carpet bombing against the Republicans, a tactic that would be used by them during WW II.
That Stalin and the Soviets were involved on the Republican side is common knowledge, and not something to be lightly dismissed. but for you to dismiss Hitler's participation in the Spanish Civil War as a "Typical response of a Leftist" demonstrates your utter lack of knowledge of what transpired during the civil war. You seem to demonstrate a pathological contempt for history.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2011 5:19:24
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Escribano
Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Alatriste)
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quote:
Typical response of a Leftist to bring up Hitler. Can't you be more original? Or do you engage in the standard followership of your bretheren?
Well, he is quite a big elephant in the room that you have steered clear of praising as the right guy for the rest of Europe because he took on the Communists, amongst others. But, by defending Franco you defend facism in Europe and I will gladly oppose you on that. In doing so, I would likely cooperate with the enemy of my enemy, just as the Allies did with Stalin - although Churchill knew exactly what the ultimate price might be, but few were listening. This not the same as "engaging in the standard followership of my bretheren" - whoever they might be. Clearly, you are not amongst them.
The elected government of Spain asked Stalin for help because we, the British, would not sell them arms. This was a big mistake as it drove a wedge between Spain and democratic Europe. We also convinced Hitler, through our appeasement, that we would not go to war in defence of such nations. For that we are entirely culpable.
Getting back to the point in hand, I tend to agree with Anthony Bevoor's conclusion that the economics of Spain under Franco were stagnant until the 60's when foreign influences laid the ground for growth e.g. through tourism and the Common Market etc.
_____________________________
Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
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Date Jun. 19 2011 8:33:40
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Kate
Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
To date, you have failed utterly to make your case.
Well that's the truth, as well as revealing himself to be a rude ignorant arrogant bully who knows nothing of the intricate politics and history of Spain.
Simon, agreed Britain failed Spain and contributed to the fall of the Republic, thank goodness we can be proud of the International Brigade. Anthony Beevor is another historian who contributed to the wealth of political discourse on Spain, as has another I left out Gerald Brennan. His book 'The Spanish Labrynthe' gives a great account of the social and political background of Spain before the Civil War.
Communism per se in Spain has existed in Spain since the 18th century to the present day in the form of farming, fishing and village collectives, obviously nothing to do with Stalin or Russian communism. To quote St. Augustine "Nolite foras ire, in interiore Hispaniae habitat veritas" ( One need not look for outside influences: the source of everything Spanish lies within Spain).
I think Alatriste is suffering from "reds under the bed" syndrome. You got to feel sorry for him, must be a horrible narrow world view to carry round with you, no wonder he is incapable of engaging in intelligent discourse and has to resort to insults and bullying tactics instead.
Spain is currently rising again against the corrupt and fascist elements in its society. I am proud to be part of that. Viva La Revolucíon comrades 
_____________________________
Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya
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Date Jun. 19 2011 10:41:42
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Alatriste
Posts: 91
Joined: Dec. 23 2009
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
Alatriste, in the case of the Spanish Civil War, it is not a "typical response of a Leftist" to bring up Hitler. Have you ever heard of the Condor Legion?
It is a typical Leftist response to bring up Hitler anytime a Leftist runs into any opposing view (regardless if the subject actually involves Hitler or not). Such a worn out tactic to link some type of kinship to Hitler. As an example Escribano stating “your mate, Hitler”
quote:
Wow, so a military coup, backed by landowners and the church, overthrows a democratically elected Republic, instigates a bloody 3 year civil war and installs a military dictatorship which continued to murder and imprison any opposition and you call them the good guys !
Hmmm. Let’s examine Kate’s learned blurb above:
military coup – Helloooo! It’s a Spanish-speaking country. A coup should be no surprise. All sides of the political spectrum sponsor golpes in the Spanish-speaking world. Look into culture, not the political spectrum.
landowners and the church – Surprise, surprise! Neither the church nor the landowners have sufficient numbers to wage war. The people must be involved, and it looks like in this case the people won.
democratically elected government – debatable, as in Hugo Chavez. Comprende?
instigates a bloody 3 year civil war – You mean like Ortega in Nicaragua? Comprende again?
military dictatorship – See above regarding golpes. Are you referring to dictatorships like Castro’s? Or is Castro also included in your lineup of heroes?
Bottomline is this Kate with Honours, you imply with your responses that the Communists in Spain were saints. This is revisionist. They in fact were not saints, they were involved in just as much butchery as the other side, in fact more - it's called war. As is common, the Left often dismisses the atrocities of their own side but pushes forward on the atrocities of the opposing side. This is why little accounting has been done in the former DDR and USSR after their failed Communist experiments. I encourage you, Kate with Honours, to read some Stephane Courtois. But start with something more elementary like The Rebel by Camus.
quote:
Alatriste, in the case of the Spanish Civil War, it is not a "typical response of a Leftist" to bring up Hitler. Have you ever heard of the Condor Legion?
Yes, I have. Condor Legions, Lincoln Brigades, blah-blah-blah. And your lectures on what is and what is not History are tiresome. Fact is the Hilter component was minor. You’ve obviously spent too much time looking at Picasso’s Guernica and mingling in cafes.
quote:
But, by defending Franco you defend fascism in Europe
But by defending Communists, you in fact well…defend Communists. Eh, Escribano?
quote:
I think Alatriste is suffering from "reds under the bed" syndrome. You got to feel sorry for him, must be a horrible narrow world view to carry round with you, no wonder he is incapable of engaging in intelligent discourse and has to resort to insults and bullying tactics instead.
Oooo! I was insulted on the internet. Whatever shall become of me?
quote:
Spain is currently rising again against the corrupt and fascist elements in its society. I am proud to be part of that. Viva La Revolucíon comrades
Just another Gringa wannabee (UK style) that wants to poke her nose into another country to impose here will. Kinda like George Bush, ya think? But since you bring it up, Spain is paying the same price that Greece is paying for writing checks that can’t be cashed.
I must admit it is nice to see all you Communists all gathered in one place
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Date Jun. 19 2011 14:15:30
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Escribano)
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Besides, as there are differing opinions on it:
What is left, what is right, and what moderate ( in between )?
According to official ( public ) outlay, actually conservative position would be moderate; shifting the hole spectrum to the right / consequently rendering philanthrops and democrats as leftist.
With regard of empirics, I have been suspicious against authencity of elections already before the first case of local voting manipulation in a German constituency in the seventies that I was told of by a personal wittness.
Another inconsistency being that the average person appears to be far more realistic than the cluelessness represented in official outcome of national elections, in which people appear to ever voluntarily vote for the very minorities that screw them.
The only consistency between official interpretation and empirics that I can see is the indestructable faith into elections themselves. Indestructable faith, yet even after revealed circumstances like in the USA.
According to the Los Angeles Times occurances in Florida like in the year 2000 would not be exeption but common.
Just like in Alaska which according to official stats had 437 000 vote entitled individuals, while 20 000 more had been registered. In Indiana even official institutions themselves provided that 10% of the 3,38 mio registered voters won´t belong on the listing, for either being arrested, moved or passed away.
Similar in Idaho, Oklahoma, Arizona, Texas, Utah and Wisconsin according to Aristotle at least 20% of the registered are actually not entitled voters.
In 2000, when there was first postal election in Oregon, following a control study, more than 36 000 of 1,5 mio ball papers had not been filled and signed by the entitled persons.
Not to go into diverse options of manipulation whether with prefilled ballot boxes, or prepared voting computers like of Nedap, Diebold, Sequoia etc.
Anyway, without doubt the alleged political middle is being interpeted to the actually right and conserving cast of mind.
And conclusively, more likely than not being that elections just as surveys are being regularly manipulated, presenting a skewed political landscape of the people to the people.
Alone heaps of readers´ online posts of todays German paper´s "Die Zeit" after an article on chancellor Merkel´s suggestion to let banks voluntarily "participate" in counter balancing the broke in Greece, once again entirely contradict the alleged "political mid".
The readers display how aware they are of the people´s drain off internationally, the industrial lobby reign, and do mock the flimsiness in Brussels, demanding that banks should not be financed by states budgets, and that the hoax and cockaigne of the rich and super rich shall be ended, finally.
Of the many posts there was not one who would had fallen for the official smokescreen.
Looks quite as we if we, the people, were being desinformed about our own understanding and political view.
As if the dopey masses could be a much smaller fraction than made believe to the public / the understanding of the people actually being more developed than official records tell.
Who knows what we´d see around us if the light was switched on.
Ruphus
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Date Jun. 19 2011 17:36:50
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Alatriste)
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quote:
Yes, I have. Condor Legions, Lincoln Brigades, blah-blah-blah. And your lectures on what is and what is not History are tiresome. Fact is the Hilter component was minor. You’ve obviously spent too much time looking at Picasso’s Guernica and mingling in cafes.
And you obviously not only have no understanding of history (having offered no evidence to support your position), but, additionally, you seem incapable of comprehending any idea that does not fall within your ideologically-driven, stove-piped view of the world. Once again, I suggest to you that while you are entitled to your own opinion (evidence not necessary), you are not entitled to your own truth (evidence necessary if you want to be taken seriously).
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 19 2011 17:40:10
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to Kate)
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quote:
I've never been called a gringa before, maybe because I live in Spain and not Mexico.
One more example that Alatriste lumps "Spanish speaking countries" together. If it happens in Mexico, it no doubt happens in Spain. After all, Spain is a Spanish speaking country.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2011 11:35:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Taxes, Corruption (in reply to chester)
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quote:
Let's get real - Flamenco is 'leftist' music created by the persecuted underdog.
Wrong. Flamenco transcends politics and ideology. To say that it is "leftist" music is to attach a label to it, and to an entire group, that is neither deserved nor that can be intellectually sustained. (I'm a perfect example, having loved flamenco for more than 40 years while considering myself neither of the left nor the right.) To pigeon-hole entire genres of music, groups of people, or anything else into ideological categories reveals more about the person doing the pigeon-holing than the those he categorizes.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2011 11:48:49
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