Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
Funny I've just been reading an article detailing worldwide unemployment statistics. It comments youth unemployment was one of the main drivers behind political uprisings n the Middle East and North Africa-" a warning for South Africa, which has a youth unemployment rate of 50.5 per cent, and Spain where it is 41.6 per cent."
Thanks for posting these Estevan. Just read that "in the city of Granada, the town hall is in negotiations with the central government about how to empty the city’s square." I hope to goodness they are not asking advice from Esperanza Aguierre
Armed with full riot gear, batons and machine-guns with rubber bullets, the police kettled in the protestors, making it impossible for them to leave or others to enter.
With the excuse of cleaning up the square for safety reasons, in preparation for tomorrow’s Champions League soccer final between Barcelona and Manchester United, the city government called for the dispersal of the crowds in order to allow for clean up teams to enter. Although this was the official stance, it soon became apparent that cleaning garbage from the square was not the true intent, and that the real aim of the operation was to seize computers, printers and documents from the movement’s steering committees, and to put an end to this popular uprising which is posing a threat to the country’s political and economic elites.
And this is exactly the problem. Do they think the people are stupid ? Do they not realise this makes people even more determined and exposes thepoliticians for the power hungry corrupt self serving elite that they are ?
Ironically this sort of action and falsehood mean more and more people are supporting and sympathizing with the demonstrators.
What you mention there seem pillars for belief to me. Intensive and decades long news consumption and the societal principles evident by it, contradict your assumption of capitalist societies basically conducted analog to official interpretation. It widely ignores the actually firm routines of corruption and nepotism, and deems regulatory instances as fully functioning.
I have extensive experience with the news media. For years I kept a copy of the Scientific American near my desk. The reason? It contained an article about the Space Surveillance Network that contained no serious errors of fact. It is the only extended article I ever read about a project I was personally familiar with that did not contain serious errors of both fact and emphasis. You base beliefs on news reports. I base mine on personal experience.
quote:
Without wishful thinking however, it should be more than clear by now that revealings like with Enron do not happen because controlling institutions were effective regardless of offenders´societal and immunity level; instead experience shows us that the rare revealings on such a level will occure exclusively after disgraced offenders have been disposed for chase by their own ambience.
Other than that, what happens when an inspector, police man, prosecute or judge appears to have found a clue by himself and intends to officially pursue a high caliber crime, is all to well known. He will be instructed to keep quiet and should he not obey, will be moved to another position, degraded or suspended. And of the very few cases when such a person in consequence tried to sue privately against his mute, I do not remember a single case where he would had succeeded, been rehabilitated and the actual offender in the end pursued.
Do you remember any such case by chance?
Of course I remember such cases being reported in the news. I never personally witnessed one. However, I have seen a number of cases where a relatively low ranking investigator uncovered irregularities, the case was pursued, and the investigator was praised and rewarded.
quote:
Next, you believe that private investors would report on graft in states business. In sight of empirics that would be like saying that foxes at times will guard chicken. Something hypthetically possible, but hillarious suggestion in regard of common routines. Which are the exact opposite.
I was not speaking of state business, if I understand what you mean by that. I was speaking of corporations whose shares are publicly traded, and who are required to conform to legal standards of accounting. For example, the downfall of Enron, though after a decade of successful fraud, was instigated by published reports from professional securities analysts.
quote:
The corruption of states institutions is the main factor for industrial bargain. It starts with jurisdictive standards that allow usury margins despite consumer squeeze, goes on with customs regulations to demand, with the common routine of manipulated callings and downright fantasy pricings at state and community deals as steady parameter, and ends with privatizations for factually nada as we have seen them inreasingly unrolled over the past ~ 35 years. ( With the German state meanwhile creepingly deprived of more than 90% of its former properties, and I strongly suppose that it won´t be much different with the US state belongings.)
Here you have veered from a discussion of fraud--illegal deception--to economic theory and philosophy. You or I may oppose the structure and operation of the government and economic system on ethical, philosophical or other grounds. But the government and economic powers may conduct these activities transparently, though we may see them as wrong.
quote:
You should know much better than that, Richard; and about the completely off the ground conditions at which for instance the weapon industry deals with the US state. Or do you believe that any war plane could actually be worth 1,3 billion USD? Or artillery munition at 20 grands a piece and more?
What something is worth is a value judgment that may vary from one person to another. What I assert is that in the vast majority of cases you can trace precisely where the money went, and that it was spent according to law, and not siphoned into the pockets of some evil plutocrat.
I am aware of two cases of extensive accounting fraud. In both cases the money was spent on one government project that had problems, but charged to another. I emphasize that none of the money was siphoned into the pockets of corrupt officials. The money went to salaries and supplies for work to bring the problem projects to their required schedules.
In one case the company got away with a moderate fine and a slap on the wrist. In the other case, a senior vice president of one of America's largest corporatios and many of his subordinates went to jail. Both cases were discovered by the government's auditors, relatively low paid individuals stationed at the companies' plants.
quote:
So much about private business and its "reports" on corruption in states oragnisation. In German we´d say that´d be like shooting on one´s own foot
I was speaking about the USA. I have never done business in Germany. I was active in business in the USA, the United Kingdom and France for 43 years.
quote:
Then you believe that the risk with the banks loans insucrance trade was not anticipated. From what I know the model drawer who invented that sketch as well as the banking woman in London who took it and rocketed her career; not only they but pretty much every one who joined the ralley knew in advance that the whole thing had to blow up.
How do you know this? From news accounts? The Americn news media reported that few if any in financial management understood the Gaussian Cupula used to evaluate risk of mortgage securities, nor how the price of previous securities was used as a proxy for the risk of individual default.
For several years while we were married, my ex-wife worked for a financial institution whose chief business was instituting mortgages on private houses. I was frequently amazed by her reports of the ignorance and stupidity of the officers of the corporation.
I asked my wife how such idiots could possibly remain in business. She said they just did what everyone else was doing.
quote:
And how should they not? Even without a special degree in economics you would have to be brain amputated to think that such a hydra could be rotating without bearing.
Precisely.
quote:
Finally you support the fable of the wealthy contributing the major part on taxes by referring to wealthy friends. Of which only "some" would own hidden assets. Psycholgically alone it appears pretty incongruent that state of minds who as "top 5-10% income earners" ought to be of the can´t-get-enough mentality, could be abstaining of the plentiful official and inofficial opportiunities of bypassing default tax.
First you imply that I am stupid. I assure you, that is a minority opinion.
After that, you ignore the table of statistics published by the government agency that collects income tax and other payroll taxes.
Next you mount an ad hominem attack upon those who have a higher than average income. I can't think of anyone in my acquaintance whose sole, or even main motivation was making money. A couple of counterexamples only. My next door neighbor is a retired veterinarian. My brother is a physician, mostly retired after a distinguished career.
During my own career, when alternatives presented themselves, all other things being equal, i chose the financially advantageous one. If at age thirty you had told me how much money I would have now, i wouldn't have believed you. If you had told me that having that much money, inflation had so severely reduced its value, I wouldn't have believed that either.
quote:
Further, you would have to count in the states financial contribuition earners on that level received before their profits. Did they discuss with you about communities special conditions for settling companies? About lowered tax and freely provided infra structure? About direct subsidies for alleged maintenance of employee positions? About state loans at special conditions ( and optional release over time )?
At the local and state levels, which are the only ones I follow closely, these are the subject of public debate in the City Council and State Legislature. These debates are reported in the news media, as well as the individual votes of the legislators. The positions of the legislators on these issues figure in political campaighns, and at times appear to decide victory or defeat.
Some see, or portray, government subsidies to industry as beneficial to the common good by helping to create jobs in the local economy. You seem to see them as theft by politicians and plutocrats. My position is somewhere in between.
It appears to me that your views represent the far left of the political spectrum. That's fine with me, and I respect your positions. But I would point out that your positions, however self-evident they may seem to you, are not necessarily universal truths, nor are they seen as such by a sizable proportion of well informed people.
quote:
In Germany, as I mentioned before several times, there exists no sum up position of yearly subsidies in the official budget list. Guess why?
How is it in the US? Is there such defined position existing in the official household survey?
No. As I pointed out, much of the industrial subsidy in the USA is appropriated by state and local government.
The federal government absolutely conceals all such data as part of a diabolical plot to steal money from the poor and give it to the rich. -
quote:
If you are willing to accept a discouraging reality, I am sure that you can research about the actual circumstances of tax withdraw and states budgets. The conditions reporters like of the "Spiegel" used to write about over past decades are probably also recorded on websites on the internet. ( Wasn´t there even a peripheral mentioning of the conditions in Michael Moore´s works, for an easier digestion?)
I find Moore's work entertaining and informative, but I view it largely as political advocacy, not as the received gospel. Moore represents an important segment of a much broader spectrum of informed political opinion.
quote:
Also, I estimate that your doughter could be a strong psyche who has faced the facts of uglyness regardless, and that exchanging with her could be informative.
Eventhough I wonder how she would proceed with finding hidden assets in places of banking secret like the Caymans, the more if bunkered in annonymous foundations, as usual.
My daughter had only been out of law school for a couple of years when, at a dinner party she mentioned she had taken one case of family law. Afterward I asked her about it, since she had said she would not take such cases.
"It's the wife of one of the earliest vice presidents of Dell Computer Corporation."
"He must have a good lawyer," I remarked.
"One of the two best in town," she replied. I knew who the two were. She wasn't one of them.
"So what's your situation?" I asked.
"I have the best private investigator in town, and the best investigative accountant."
"How did that come about?"
"I guess his lawyer didn't think he had to move that fast."
I assume that her investigative accountant found hidden assets, since she obtained a sizable settlement for her client. I also assumed that the details of negotiation were confidential. But if you have complete access to someone's financial records, it's not hard to track down offshore assets. The money has to go from your possession to an unreported entity. The path may be tortuous, but at some point the money disappears to an unreported entity, through an unreported transaction. This is against the law.
That's why people with concealed assets pay an amount of income tax every year that corresponds to their visible lifestyle. They want to avoid an audit by the Internal Revenue Service which would readily reveal their fraud.
Since that time my daughter has been Assistant Attorney General of the State of Texas. Among other duties in this job she represented the state at the Federal Circuit Court in New Orleans when she was 28 years old. For several years she was Senior Staff Attorney on the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, researching appeals, presenting cases to the nine judges of the court, and drafting decisions.
Recently she has been extra busy because the state Legislature is in session. Some standing committees rely on her as a legal expert. Though she is not on the Legislature's staff, she has drafted several bills that were passed into law.
I missed my regular lunch with her this week because she is now Assistant District Attorney of Williamson County. They have two major trials going on. The District Attorney is away, so she is in charge of the other prosecutors. During the court's lunch recess they confer on strategy and tactics.
We remain close. Her views on the prevalence of corporate and government fraud coincide fairly closely with mine. I am certain she has no tolerance for it.
A few weeks ago, we were discussing changes in society since she was in high school, and the more extensive changes since I was in high school. Topics included the influence of money on politics and the increasingly shabby treatment of their employees by corporations.
I said to her, "I started to say 'money', but it's more accurate to say 'greed'. I believe greed has corrupted our political and economic systems."
She didn't disagree.
But all this is boring, compared to the interesting events going on in Spain.
I wonder how many days it will take till the problems in spain arent in the news anymore coz it got kind of boring... These bastards from the news.. Well,.. maybe they could pick it up eventually to stuff the summer slump.
ORIGINAL: I wonder how many days it will take till the problems in spain arent in the news anymore coz it got kind of boring...
Dont worry they are already bored. The Guardian today is still talking about yesterdays news regards the events in Madrid. No updates, no coverage of the police action in Barcelona, nor that the protesters reclaimed the square afterwards, nor about the support from the city's inhabitants who all went to bear witness and protest the police action.
Luckily the activists camping out in Spanish squares dont get as bored as easily as you do with their fight for political reform. I for one am waiting to see how the politicians address these issues, they cannot ignore this uprising with general elections on the way, nor can they use force to stop them without serious repercussions.
I hope the world continues watching and not just for entertainment value, but I suspect that like you they will be easily bored. Maybe the late great Gil Scott Heron was right and the revolution will not be televised as it wont be considered entertaining enough.
I admire your civilized manner whilst voices like mine must be appearing so annoying to you. I wished to have some of your diplomatic skills.
What hard facts are concerned. They have been available throughout the decades, with most investigative times having been maybe from the late seventies to the early nineties. ( With the international press having been concertated and incredibly submissed again over the past ~ 20 years.)
I used to store political magazines like the Spiegel as ressource, however throwing away quintals when moving. And I could probably find examples in the couple editions at hand at my current place abroad; but is it really necessary to present you cases of corruption when they are being reported on weekly even now with a widely teethless press scene?
Actually, what puzzles me throughout my adult life is how intelligent people manage to tell themselves that the continous string of corruption was only a steady raw of exceptions to the norm. How they sturdily do not want to see the principles evident and that the "exceptions" are very clearly symptomatic tip of the iceberg.
You can have Medellin cartells buying in complete and partial parliaments in Europe during the eighties. You can have them invest largely into international combines of car production, electronics and weaponry. You can have a single industrial having the entire German parliament on his pay roll. You can have a Swedish prime minister who planned to restrict the national weapon industry, assasinated by an ex-police officer in a city center cordoned by the police, with the killer driving away freely ( and never sentenced / arrested ). You can have a German chanceller emitting 20 mio DM black money to finance right wing radicals for them to detonate bombs in public which then will be ascribed to the left for to succesfully undermine the election of socialists in Portugal ( or was it Spain; must admit that I don´t recall which of the two ). You can have a wittness for the same chanceller having ordered a killer, only for the wittness to be ridiculed in the press, and you can have the same chanceller again shredding states files with proof of his actions at the end of his legislature with the nation standing by shragging shoulders. And you can have the records of this chancellers secret communication found in the former DDR´s stasi files immediately cleared out of sight, without even anyone asking why.
You can have the looting of the entire former Eastern block after the break down, like most prominently in Russia with its giant ressources almost completely shifted into private hands. With the operations of the Russian mafia instigated and supported by US foreign affairs. Who were involved from the beginning with lurking in Gorbatshov by promissing to make an industrial leader of him ( and betray him afterwards just as routinely as with the historical fake promisses to Amercian natives ) and pushing in Jelzin right afterwards as readily obedient bailiff who served to legalize the usurpation of the country´s porperties before escorted to his booze retirement.
You can read of his immunity-granting follower Putin who allowed himself to request 10 mio $ per consultation, beforhand of even actual consent of selling out people´s rights to privatiers.
You can have decades on international policies of coup d'etat, invasions, wars and civil wars for industrial nations´ ressource agenda. You can have an exponential increase of rake in that has resulted in sheer insane wealth of privilegeds and poverty explosion in the balance. You can have vaporizing of trillions of little peoples´investments and states budgets, with governments instead of pursuing backing up the routines.
And yet, on default, all the well-informed people fancying functional democracies in place.
This is no well information. It is factual build-up without coherence and deconstructive ability. It is in fact a miracle of decluded vegetation.
Dear Richard,
I do not think at all that you are stupid, and you know that. Actually I admire your intellectual openess. However, I presume that unconsciously you don´t allow yourself to fully face the inhuman state.
An apparent psychological self-defence that drives the majority of fellow men. Unconscious ignorance despite facts, which used to be an anthropological survival factor, now the most destructive phenomenon since men effectively detouched from nature. A psychological phenomenon further imployed and systematically exploited by feudal and capitalistic condition, which to expound on here would be taking too long. -
German TV showed how furiously the police raged on the Spanish demonstrants. You got to wonder how they make the officers go nuts that way.
In the sixties and seventies executive was tought that the left were threatening everyone´s wellbeing; but what are they being told these days?
I know that in similar cases German corps are being stirred up subtley, by transporting them much too early, letting them wait in the weather, cutting down their supply on drink and meal etc. But it is hard to believe that such would be enough to have individuals smash demonstrants bones and skulls.
Obviously you can still have hosts irrationally running to demand. It must be one more clue of how intellectual forthcoming isn´t really where it´s supposed to be in the third millenia.
Intelligence and reason are two different matters, with the first one being much less relevant than the second.
I doubt that anyone reading this thread is anxiously awaiting any further thoughts from you and me regarding capitalism, socialism, the world situation, the U.S., or American diplomats. It seems to me that we have said all there is to be said on those subjects. I suggest we stick to the topic of this thread, which is Spain, and about which there are forum members--Kate, Pimientito, Estevan, and others come to mind--who know much more than either you or I. Who knows, we might just learn something?!
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Is it just me, or isnt demonstrating for reforms exactly the opposite of a revolution?
Nicely put. And of course a democratic right. Last night the plaza del Carmen in Granada was festooned with flowers. More people than ever went to show support horrified by the images of police brutality. All over Spain the plazas held a minutes silence to show solidarity. Meanwhile the Partido Popular is calling for the government to crack down harder than ever saying the squares are deteriorating into shanty towns. Not so they are well organised with food kitchens, toilet facilities, cleaning up groups, creches, libraries, press offices and what's more they have the support of the majority of citizens.
I suggest we stick to the topic of this thread, which is Spain, and about which there are forum members
Just to throw in my 2 cents, this thread has pretty complex by comparing the economic model of the US to Spain. Regardless of the political points, merits and flaws of the arguments of the protestors there is something more basic to consider.
Is it ever justified for police to attack unarmed peaceful demonstrators??
One of the things about Spain that I have enjoyed is the right the people have to free speech. Almost every weekend there is some kind of peaceful (albeit noisy ) demonstration in Granada. The Gran via is closed for an hour or so and groups can demonstrate with flags, banners and music. I dont always agree with some of the demonstrations but I have always felt is a is a good thing to allow the people to have their say.
I remember in Madrid when the traffic police started putting parking meters in residential areas and everyone was furious. They took digging machines and dumped about 500 parking meters outside the city hall. There was no shootings, no beatings, no army presence...just the people saying enough is enough, and that was the end of the parking meter story.
Spain is going through a period of much regressive legislation. Laws are being passed to make it illegal to eat or drink on the street. Speed limits have been reduced on motorways. Banks are charging more for doing less. Its illegal to play music without a licence...in fact its now illegal to play a Spanish guitar on the streets of Spain. Revelation of huge corruption during the boom years is emerging from town halls and banking systems. unemployment is increasing and people are getting angry. There is a lot of sympathy for the protestors, mainly because they point out the system is flawed. They want real democracy.
Its difficult to talk about Spanish politics on an international forum. Last time I mentioned the word Socialism, half the readers thought that I meant communism. The demonstrators are trying to say that there is a big difference between real democracy and a country that simply has elections. An essentially 2 party system of corrupt politicians is not representing the interests of the people...and this is what they are hoping the demonstrations will change. The mayors, ministers, bankers and diplomats have huge incomes and expense accounts while the general public are being fined and penalised for infractions imposed by regressive legislation.
Its not just Spanish politics here..a few other countries could think about these points on democracy too.
I remember in 1968, on the University of Texas campus, ending up standing next to an FBI agent who suspiciously eyed my boots, Levis, motorcycle jacket and slightly long hair. Stokely Carmichael had just given a speech about black people "taking control of their neighborhoods". Stokely's helpers passed buckets through the crowd, collecting money. Stokely chanted, "Remember, brothers and sisters, every dime buys a bullet!"
Nothing bad happened that evening, but I feared where it all might end.
Later that year the Students For a Democratic Society organized a peaceful protest against the war in Vietnam on the same campus. That day the police broke heads and rolled out the choking tear gas grenades against us.
It went on and on, and on, for years--peaceful protests met with violence by the police and the National Guard.
The Spanish police seem not to have broken out the tear gas yet. Tears enough for me all the same, watching that video.
Quotes: "Is it ever justified for police to attack unarmed peaceful demonstrators??" "[demonstrating is]... of course a democratic right"
I think thats a huge misunderstanding. Democracy doesnt mean everything gets done in the way the majority wants. There is a state which has its own interests, and which it can enforce even against the majority. Only if the majority gains a critical mass, if they are decisive, if they have the means... etc etc In the perspective of the state these demonstrators are annoying because they block the streets and places, dont go to work or school, etc. They are to be removed. Demonstrating is only allowed within the limits the state gives them (like everywhere in the world).
A state that has its interests against the people is no democracy. That is the logic of the matter, and what it´s all about.
These fake installments called "democracy" that people still have to live with actually could care less about the people. They are apparatus of privileged minorities. -
And it is beyond me how this can be unclear to who informs himself about what is going on on earth.
Democracy would be there to allow people´s interests to be fully reflected and pursued. Educational, informational, judicative and executive elements would all operate correspondingly.
If they don´t, as is, it can only be fake at best.
Quotes: "Is it ever justified for police to attack unarmed peaceful demonstrators??" "[demonstrating is]... of course a democratic right"
quote:
I think thats a huge misunderstanding. Democracy doesnt mean everything gets done in the way the majority wants. There is a state which has its own interests, and which it can enforce even against the majority. Only if the majority gains a critical mass, if they are decisive, if they have the means... etc etc
In the perspective of the state these demonstrators are annoying because they block the streets and places, dont go to work or school, etc. They are to be removed. Demonstrating is only allowed within the limits the state gives them (like everywhere in the world).
Constitucion Española
Aprobada por las Cortes en Sesiones Plenarias del Congreso de los Diputados y del Senado celebradas el 31 de Octubre de 1978.
Ratificada por el Pueblo Español en Referéndum de 6 de Diciembre de 1978.
Sancionada por S.M. el Rey ante las Cortes el 27 de Diciembre de 1978.
DON JUAN CARLOS I, REY DE ESPAÑA, A TODOS LOS QUE LA PRESENTE VIEREN Y ENTENDIEREN, SABED: QUE LAS CORTES HAN APROBADO Y EL PUEBLO ESPAÑOL RATIFICADO LA SIGUIENTE CONSTITUCIÓN:
.........
Artículo 21.
1. Se reconoce el derecho de reunión pacifica y sin armas. El ejercicio de este derecho no necesitará autorización previa.
2. En los casos de reuniones en lugares de tránsito público y manifestaciones se dará comunicación previa a la autoridad, que sólo podrá prohibirlas cuando existan razones fundadas de alteración del orden público, con peligro para personas o bienes.
It would appear that the alteration of public order, with danger to people and property came about only upon the appearance of the police.
A somewhat earlier instance of the same right, in a country more fortunate in some ways:
United States Constitution, First Amendment, ratified by the states, December 15, 1791:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Personally, I have no problem with members discussing current events or other off topic stuff so long as it is not partisan or promoting political parties etc. We all live in the same world and cannot be expected to ignore significant news events, whether we play Flamenco or not. I'm sure it's the same in Spain.
I also enjoy the funny off topic stories, like the time Florian had to phone a girlfriend to change a tyre for him.
It's through these stories and personal opinions that we get a more rounded picture of members and makes ForoFlamenco a more sociable place IMO, rather than just a faceless on-line Flamenco database and helpline.
There are a lot of threads I don't follow since I have no interest in the subject matter, but I wouldn't lock or delete them simply because of that.
There's plenty of ON topic stuff on the site for those who just want that.
(Speaking of off-topic stuff, it's been ages since we've had a good old Doit bitchin' and grumbling story.. )
June the 18th and the protests are still going strong. Tomorrow there is a National march, in cities all over Spain. 6 pm tomorrow La Caleta in Granada.
What has fascinated me about the protests has been the nightly assemblies and the fact that no leader has emerged, it is still a people's protest. Of course there are rallying groups Democracía Real Ya, 15 - M and Los Indignados but they are all in agreement. Tomorrow I am guessing there will be people from all walks of life and all political persuasions and not just the disaffected youth.
In Granada the demonstration has become a permanent fixture out side the town hall though they are no longer sleeping overnight. After the violence in Barcelona they have all been left alone with a minimal police presence. The assemblies have now spread to neighbourhoods with each Barrio holding weekly meetings.
The press seems to have lost interest with the only story I have seen recently was when an unemployed protestor in Madrid won a million or more on the national Lottery.
Tomorrow there is a National march, in cities all over Spain.
Here's what it looks like in Madrid today. Regular assemblies have been held in the various neighbourhoods outside the centre in recent weeks, and they are converging downtown today:
It was everywhere. All the major cities had huge demonstrations. About 25,000 people marched in Granada. Here is a picture from my balcony. (The Gran via is over a Kilometer long)
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
Printable Version
New Messages
No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages
Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages
Locked w/o New Messages
Post New Thread