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RE: Spanish Revolution
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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 RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to estebanana)
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I'll agree the republicans in office aren't too smart. They went from owning it in 2010 to being yelled at at town halls for supporting a budget proposal that will privatize medical care for seniors, thus essentially taking away the security of medical care when one is old. No one is going to get behind that idea, unless your so rich you don't have to worry about paying the going rate, whatever that may be.
OTOH, most people in the US making even semi serious coin are paying too much in taxes already IMO. And while I do believe the US should offer a helping hand to citizens who have fallen on hard times, it's completely out of control. Too many takers, not enough earners. Too many government programs, tax breaks, etc.
To answer your question, my own opinion is that it will take quite some time for people in the US to start a revolt that will have any serious impact. What would be the point? Revolt for higher taxes on the rich? That's an easy one. But the rich aren't stupid, and there's only so much you can bleed someone before they say no mas.
RE:45k-if your single and don't own a home your paying maybe 5k in fed taxes and 9-10K total including SS, state tax, etc. Then you get to pay sales tax of almost 10% on everything you buy with what's left. If you own a home and have two kids, you probably are only paying out 3-4k total.
In any case, in many parts of the country you aren't doing too well in either senario with 45k. Many fulltime jobs don't pay anywhere near 45k.
Tough times for sure.
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Nobody expects the Spanish Revolution!
Very funny.
It makes me wonder how many centuries it will be before the American public gets pissed off enough to do this against republicans that seem to be trying to divide country into the richer and richer and richer 5% and the hand to mouth majority.
Maybe in 20 Years?
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Date May 23 2011 22:45:37
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Doitsujin)
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It´s about time for people to understand that states statistics aren´t the wholy grail of sincerity, but manipulated to desire just like declarations of combines.
The numbers on US tax contributions quoted above obviously are not empirical, but projection on official dues of income groups.
Everyone who regularly reads the papers over a longer period of time, knows from countless reports that official dues have absolutely nothing to do with actual pratice.
True instead is that the higher the income group the more official and unofficial opportunities of bypassing tax there exist.
Any tax consultant with wealthy clients would confirm that to you provided anonymity / trusting you enough.
Practical reality is that near 100% of all levy is being drawn in from mid to low income tax dues and that the upper class including combines pay from near nothing down to in fact taking in subsidies.
In the same time those immediate near 100% actually amount to several hundred and even thousands of % when you consider who will in the long term have to shoulder the states debts.
Who has yet not understood that common states form serves to conduct vertical cash flow might slowly be waking up in an ever more burdening world of an accumulating upper class.
And what the mentioned states debts are concerned, it is essential to know how they come about.
Folks may try to remember this for future considerations:
States lend tax money to banks and privatiers at nominal interest ( = under consideration of inflation less than zero ). These banks and privatiers lend that same money back to the states at market conditions.
This is just one of the cockaigne circuits installed to lead ad absurdum each and everything of the official depiction according to which states were representative and in charge for the people.
In Germany the cartel office just stated yesterday that the mineral oil companies ought to be secretly arranging price rigging.
In fact the arbitrary and joint price pushing is so blatantly obvious that the cartel office is just being due to utter the suspicion regularly since 30 years now.
Yet, it is completely unable to interrupt the obvious monopolism. Not with oil, nor with current, not with the telecom, nor against usury and fraud of the pharmaceutical, insuring, shipping, civil engineering etc.pp. industries.
After you read up on these common irregularities; will you believe that a peoples´representing state could not pursue and throttle the milking off of its citizens?
Then go ahead and try to tell BS to your local tax office and see how analytical and consequent the apparatus actually can be.
-
How in the world can you just eat cynical stats without splutter, still in the year 2011?
Alice?
Ruphus
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Date May 25 2011 11:44:41
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ruphus
It´s about time for people to understand that states statistics aren´t the wholy grail of sincerity, but manipulated to desire just like declarations of combines.
The numbers on US tax contributions quoted above obviously are not empirical, but projection on official dues of income groups.
Everyone who regularly reads the papers over a longer period of time, knows from countless reports that official dues have absolutely nothing to do with actual pratice.
True instead is that the higher the income group the more official and unofficial opportunities of bypassing tax there exist.
Any tax consultant with wealthy clients would confirm that to you provided anonymity / trusting you enough.
Ruphus
In the USA, people are regularly fined or sent to jail for falsifying the balance sheets of publicly traded corporations. This is not to say it never happens. But in a number of cases, the truth comes out and the perpetrators are prosecuted and punished.
A notorious case was that of Enron. It was one of the highest flying "innovators" in business, making sizable profits for its investors. It turns out that Enron's principal innovations were in "creative" accounting. The word got out, the stock crashed, the company went bankrupt, employees lost their pensions.
The CEO and other high ranking officers of the company were prosecuted and jailed.
There are thousands of people working every day to investigate and evaluate the finances of publicly traded businesses. Their job is to provide advice to wealthy clients and institutions. These people and institutions have no tolerance whatsoever for fraud in financial reporting.
Let's look at this a little more closely. A major cause of the recent and ongoing financial crisis was the packaging of risky mortages into securities, which were then sold to large institutions.
The quality of the individual loans was not concealed. Instead the ratings of the collectivized securities was based on an erroneous analysis, that turned out to be disastrously wrong. The evaluation of risk was calculated by a complex formula based on the risk of default by the people paying the mortgages.
Unfortunately, no detailed information existed on the risk of default. An ingenious PhD said, "Well, we can use the price of previous securities of this type as a substitute for risk of default. After all, the price of a security represents risk in a rational market."
The problem was that the price of previous securities didn't represent risk of default. As long as house prices went up, you didn't lose money if someone defaulted. You just repossessed the house and sold it to the next sucker. You were likely even to profit.
When house prices tanked, the securities fell apart, as did the insurance written for them by companies such as AIG.
Numerous economists had warned of the danger of the housing bubble. A few astute statisticians had pointed out the fallacy of the risk assessment models. After the deluge, dozens of financial journalists asserted that very few people even understood how the risk assessment models worked.
The crisis was not the result of fraud. It was the result of greed and stupidity. This doesn't excuse the behavior of the financial sector. But it does undercut the public perception of widespread fraud.
Some companies, and some individuals like Bernard Madoff may get away with fraud for extended periods, but it is rare.
Throughout my working life I participated in the preparation, submission and negotiation of numerous proposals for government contracts by a variety of private corporations. The companies ranged from my private consulting firm to General Electric, Lockheed and Raytheon. The size of the contracts ranged from a few hundred thousand dollars to billions.
In every case, detailed financial information was submitted to the government to support the proposed cost. In every case this information was audited in detail by the government. I participated in both the preparation and auditing processes. In no case was any of the financial information found to be fraudulent, or even in error.
This is not to say that fraudulent information has never been detected. But it has been extremely rare.
Large corporations with skilled tax departments don't need to practice fraud to avoid taxes. Congress has passed laws providing enough loopholes for the skilled and powerful to sail an aircraft carrier through.. To me, this appears to be a clear case of big money influencing politics for the worse.
It is true that higher income individuals have access to more sophisticated tax advice. Many also evade the law. While my daughter was in private practice as a lawyer, she took the divorce case of the wife of one of the earliest vice presidents of Dell Computer Corporation. I asked her what strategy she would follow to get a fair financilal settlement.
"Find his hidden assets and talk to him about the Internal Revenue Service," she replied.
"You seem confident that he has hidden assets," I remarked.
"Anybody with that much money has hidden assets," she answered.
Although the very wealthy may evade taxes to some considerable extent, I believe these figures from the IRS on actual tax collections are accurate:
Even with their more sophisticated strategies and the evasions of the very wealthy, the top 50% of income earners pay 97% of the income tax.
Why do I believe this? Most of my friends and associates are in the top 5-10% of income earners. I have known many of them for decades and discussed personal finances with them. Yes, some have hidden assets, but they still pay substantial amounts of income tax every year.
Another reason I think the statistics are accurate is the poisonous political atmosphere in the USA. The Democrats and Republicans are at one another's throats on practically every issue, especially fiscal ones. It would require a conspiracy of both parties to defraud the public with tax statistics. The two parties are unable to cooperate on anything, much less to conspire.
When payroll taxes to support Social Security and Medicare--wealth transfers to older people--are factored in, the burden falls more heavily on the lower 50% than does the income tax. But it comes nowhere near tipping the balance.
The wealthy may, and many do evade taxes, but they still pay the lion's share of individual taxes.
RNJ
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Date May 26 2011 18:13:42
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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Well put, Richard! This thread contains a lot of misinformation attempting to substantiate misinformed opinion on the subjects of both the cause of Spain's financial crisis and the United States' private enterprise, regulatory, and tax regime. I attempted to explain Spain's current dilemma in an earlier post on this thread, using some facts about the Socialist government's implementation of costly programs over the last seven years that have led to Spain living way beyond its means. (Just as Greece faces the same dilemma, and for the same reasons.)
You, in your post, just knocked the legs out from under all the misinformed and downright loony opinions expressed about who pays taxes in the U.S. and at what rate. And you set the record straight on the subject of corporate fraud. Corporate fraud of course exists, but it is not nearly as widespread as many want to believe. Those who want to blame all the world's ills on capitalism, the U.S., and much of Europe need to critically reassess their long-cherished beliefs and discard that myth, as comfortable (and as unthinking) as it might be.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 26 2011 22:08:01
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Doitsujin)
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Hi Richard,
What you mention there seem pillars for belief to me.
Intensive and decades long news consumption and the societal principles evident by it, contradict your assumption of capitalist societies basically conducted analog to official interpretation.
It widely ignores the actually firm routines of corruption and nepotism, and deems regulatory instances as fully functioning.
Without wishful thinking however, it should be more than clear by now that revealings like with Enron do not happen because controlling institutions were effective regardless of offenders´societal and immunity level; instead experience shows us that the rare revealings on such a level will occure exclusively after disgraced offenders have been disposed for chase by their own ambience.
Other than that, what happens when an inspector, police man, prosecute or judge appears to have found a clue by himself and intends to officially pursue a high caliber crime, is all to well known. He will be instructed to keep quiet and should he not obey, will be moved to another position, degraded or suspended. And of the very few cases when such a person in consequence tried to sue privately against his mute, I do not remember a single case where he would had succeeded, been rehabilitated and the actual offender in the end pursued.
Do you remember any such case by chance?
Next, you believe that private investors would report on graft in states business. In sight of empirics that would be like saying that foxes at times will guard chicken. Something hypthetically possible, but hillarious suggestion in regard of common routines. Which are the exact opposite.
The corruption of states institutions is the main factor for industrial bargain.
It starts with jurisdictive standards that allow usury margins despite consumer squeeze, goes on with customs regulations to demand, with the common routine of manipulated callings and downright fantasy pricings at state and community deals as steady parameter, and ends with privatizations for factually nada as we have seen them inreasingly unrolled over the past ~ 35 years. ( With the German state meanwhile creepingly deprived of more than 90% of its former properties, and I strongly suppose that it won´t be much different with the US state belongings.)
You should know much better than that, Richard; and about the completely off the ground conditions at which for instance the weapon industry deals with the US state. Or do you believe that any war plane could actually be worth 1,3 billion USD? Or artillery munition at 20 grands a piece and more?
So much about private business and its "reports" on corruption in states oragnisation.
In German we´d say that´d be like shooting on one´s own foot.
Then you believe that the risk with the banks loans insucrance trade was not anticipated.
From what I know the model drawer who invented that sketch as well as the banking woman in London who took it and rocketed her career; not only they but pretty much every one who joined the ralley knew in advance that the whole thing had to blow up.
And how should they not?
Even without a special degree in economics you would have to be brain amputated to think that such a hydra could be rotating without bearing.
Finally you support the fable of the wealthy contributing the major part on taxes by referring to wealthy friends. Of which only "some" would own hidden assets.
Psycholgically alone it appears pretty incongruent that state of minds who as "top 5-10% income earners" ought to be of the can´t-get-enough mentality, could be abstaining of the plentiful official and inofficial opportiunities of bypassing default tax.
Further, you would have to count in the states financial contribuition earners on that level received before their profits. Did they discuss with you about communities special conditions for settling companies? About lowered tax and freely provided infra structure? About direct subsidies for alleged maintenance of employee positions? About state loans at special conditions ( and optional release over time )?
In Germany, as I mentioned before several times, there exists no sum up position of yearly subsidies in the official budget list. Guess why?
How is it in the US?
Is there such defined position existing in the official household survey?
-
If you are willing to accept a discouraging reality, I am sure that you can research about the actual circumstances of tax withdraw and states budgets. The conditions reporters like of the "Spiegel" used to write about over past decades are probably also recorded on websites on the internet.
( Wasn´t there even a peripheral mentioning of the conditions in Michael Moore´s works, for an easier digestion?)
Also, I estimate that your doughter could be a strong psyche who has faced the facts of uglyness regardless, and that exchanging with her could be informative.
Eventhough I wonder how she would proceed with finding hidden assets in places of banking secret like the Caymans, the more if bunkered in annonymous foundations, as usual.
-
Bill,
Nice to see you applauding.
Got to see yet an US diplomatic corps member critically surveying on grey economy and mafia at home.
What a blasphemic Galileu Galilei has been, hasn´t he? No respect for expectancy. Yuck! ;0/
>shoo!< Nothing to be seen here, people, everything according to label, walk on! 
Ruphus
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Date May 27 2011 13:19:05
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
I don't mean to come off as a champion of truth, justice and the American Way. America deserves plenty of criticism for its role since becoming a world power.
It also deserves plenty of criticism for its internal politics, power relationships, and economic system.
But if we're going to criticize, let's get our facts straight. It's more effective that way.
RNJ
Richard,
I agree with you and never implied that you were a "champion of truth, justice, and the American Way." As I stated in my post, it is those who "blame all the world's ills on capitalism, the U.S., and much of Europe" that need to critically reassess their long-cherished beliefs and comfortable myths.
You were spot-on.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 27 2011 14:06:12
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus,
You make grand, sweeping charges and indictments of official and corporate corruption; of judges and officials being sidelined for delving too deeply into misdeeds, both governmental and corporate; and of who pays what percentage of U.S. federal income taxes. But you fail to substantiate your charges and indictments with hard, specific cases that would prove your intended point that such corruption and misdeeds are the norm, rather than the exception. Richard did not state that such corruption and misdeeds do not exist; he stated clearly that they do exist. But Richard also gave plenty of hard, specific examples that demonstrate the corporate and governmental world operating with integrity, as it should.
Your comment: "Got to see yet an US diplomatic corps member critically surveying on grey economy and mafia at home," simply demonstrates how little you know about the U.S. diplomatic corps. They certainly will not buy into your vision of America because it is so flawed and without foundation. But I assure you that they, and I, are perfectly willing to discuss America's shortcomings.
If you wish your views to be considered seriously, you must demonstrate hard, specific examples and figures that substantiate your broad, sweeping contention that American society consists of a "grey economy and mafia." So far, you have not offered convincing evidence to either refute Richard's statements or to substantiate your own regarding U.S. diplomats.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 27 2011 14:27:27
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Spanish Revolution (in reply to mezzo)
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So do you blame all the world's ills on capitalism, the U.S., and much of Europe, Mezzo? If so, please provide evidence to substantiate your position.
A mildly amusing autographed T-shirt is no substitute for a well-reasoned argument.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date May 27 2011 17:34:55
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