Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone, whatever you want to call it

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Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone, wha...

I've gotten really into making my own rope for rosettes (and possible purflings at some point).
What I've been doing is stacking up veneers and then cutting slices off at 60 degrees on the bandsaw, then trying to glue those together to make a longer strip. But this strip doesn't usually stand up to being cleaned up and then sliced into thin strips on the bandsaw, it breaks apart into pieces. I guess you take the strip and laminate veneers on both sides to keep it together? But you still have to surface/thickness it without it falling apart.
Is there a better way to end up with a longer strip? I can't imagine doing one long enough for a purfling.
And how do you make a really elongated taper like more than the 60 degrees that your miter gauge goes up to

Thanks for sharing any tips.

I LOVE making rosettes and would like to take them to the next level with some handmade rope.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2011 23:02:07

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

What the hell? You drop the braid in the channel just like it's a long skinny tile. You don't have to make them into long strips. But if you want to make long strips look at the Bogdanovich book for ideas, he has a method laid out to make that wheat pattern as a continuous strip.

You can also make a simple one by taking two swatches of thick veneer an 1" wide by 30" or so. Select two colors or B&W and then cut off short pieces about 5/8" long from those long veneer strips - then glue the pieces back together by over lapping one color over the other so you get a new long piece of veneer goes: b-w-b-w-b-w- etc. with each one over lapping the same distance.

After you have that set up you can either plane and scrape it flat or run it through a drum sander. You end up with a long smooth veneer that is 1" wide and alternates colors or b-w. Then take a straight edge and slice that baby down the center so you have two 30" by 1/2" pieces, flip them into each other and line up the points that you will see on the profile edge of each strip.

To glue that together it's simple. Brush liberal amounts of hot hide glue on both pieces and slap them together. Wiggle them around until the points line up and then squeegee them through your thumb and forefinger to squeeze out excess glue. Have a bowl of clean warm water handy and clean your fingers. Then squeeze out the strip again. Try not to wash glue out from between the strips. Lay the strip on a table on a piece of waxed paper and burnish them together lightly with a block of smoothed hard wood. Let it dry for several hours. No clamping needed.

You can slice that in half one more time and have two pieces of 1/4" wide x 30" long purfling to do a top purfling. Or cut it in half at 15" x 1/2" and then cut off 1/8" wide lines to make rosette lines.

If you don't understand the idea I can make a drawing. But I think you'll get it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2011 23:57:26

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

A quick one while I am here. Stack up your pattern over and over. Make sure this is the desired length. glue with say PU glue so it doesnt break under heat. Once dry Cut Diagonally from one corner to the opposite corner. Glue them back together but so the pattern runs at the desired angle through the log. You have to be really keen on the pattern though because you will probably have a couple of years supply of it. Always glue a backing strip on the log before cutting the desired thickness.
I will take a picture of the log I use for my rosette when I am in the workshop tomorrow and post it here.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2011 20:53:03

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

OK thanks Stephens.

Este, would you use hide glue for the overlapping thing and not worry about clamping?

SEden, I like your method! pictures would be appreciated. thanks again

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2011 23:44:41

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Sure use hide glue, or use carpenters glue either works. If the pieces curl up use plexiglass or strip of wood for a caul and some light clamps over the whole thing. You just have to experiment. Also 5/8" is about the outer limit of how big a piece you want to use. The smaller the piece the shorter the dart image will be. 5/8" will make a really long dart and 1/4" over lapped in half by 1/8" will make a short fat dart. I ust try a few samples until you find a dart size you like.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 4:15:43

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I make a lot of herrigbone, wheat etc. patterns. I make it up as a sheet like I would purflings,since i often use it as purflings.

The easiest way to go involves a thickness sander and a belt sander. I glue up a long log (12 or so inches long) of stacked veneers at an angle. I then cut them to an appropriate thickness. Rather than try to glue them together and to the backing veneer at the same time, I recently discovered a trick that is one of my best one's yet. I use CA and kicker to join the pieces together to create a long piece of wheat. This ensures no gap at the point of contact. Then I use the belt sander to get a very nice flat surface and THEN glue (type II titbond), to a sheet of veneer. After that dries I send it through the thickness sander, get it to the appropriate thickness and glue on the other veneer. Done

When doing herringbone with a reversal, like you find in rosettes, this method works so much better. You can really get things to line up very nicely without fearing that the glue will cause things to slip out of alignment. The CA joints do not present issues when bending as the two pieces of veneer on either side offer good support. Since I make up such long veneer logs there are only a couple of CA joints in there anyways.

My good deed for the day:)

aaron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 12:44:56

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

You guys are the best. It really is a good deed because there is not a lot of information out there. I thank you both for offering your hard earned tricks of the trade

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 14:23:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to aarongreen)

quote:

THEN glue (type II titbond

titbond?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 14:57:11

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I shouldn't have ignored my spell check. I meant teetbond

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 18:07:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

You really do need to use spell check: It's 'teatbond'.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 19:15:17

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to aarongreen)

tsts, ill minded spell check

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 19:28:10

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

this is why Ron likes guitar makers.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 4 2011 20:07:20

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Stephen,

From the Urban dictionary

teet
Ridiculous mispelling of "teat" by people who think they're sophisticated and don't know any better.

So who's laughing now Mr. Smarty Pants?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2011 1:37:51

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I guess you are Mr. Urbane Dikcshunary.

LOL
I'll use it in a sentence.

Mr. Tony Montana: Ah mang jew gotta any teetbond glue?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2011 1:39:21

aarongreen

Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

That must be from the prequel to Scarface....Scarfingers. The tale of a coked out woodworker who fights his way to the top of the seedy underworld of loose tenons, tight joints and fast splines.

That took me a while.....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 5 2011 23:40:03

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I'm gonna quit while I'm behind.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2011 4:10:24

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Heres the log I made this time last year! it was twice the thickness but that was about 25 guitars ago. there is no reason this cant be 750 - 800mm long so you can use a full strip without joins for perfling.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2011 13:17:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Stephen Eden)

So you just glue that down to piece of veneer on the other side and it holds it together? Thats cool.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2011 17:13:32

Stephen Eden

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

yup. I glue the vaneer on first then slice what I want off. do the final thicknessing in the sander hey presto. The real trick is the glue you use! PU is heat resistant so it wont splinter. The vaneer is a backer because it's still easy to break.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2011 18:11:00

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

SEden, that thing must have been a monster! good way to scale up production there.

I made a much more modest 4 rosettes worth...
I started with a simple 1" x 34" black-red-white stack such as would be used for purflings. I then cut that into 1" x 1.5" pieces and basically used Faulk's method of overlapping from there on.

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 6 2011 20:28:19

Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 9 2011 18:32:37

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2011 18:30:59

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

bump, bump

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 11 2011 18:24:38

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

bump, bump

*ouch!*

Here's what I did with it. It's a pretty wild rosette but it's going to be on a pretty wild guitar with Myrtle back + sides

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2011 2:24:19

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

What kinds of woods are the tiles made from?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2011 2:54:44

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

it's end grain Padouk and Ebony.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 15 2011 23:21:35

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

nice

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2011 0:08:03

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

I once saw this great Santos rosette that had red diamond tiles. Kinda reminds me of that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2011 2:51:19

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I once saw this great Santos rosette that had red diamond tiles. Kinda reminds me of that.

got any pictures? That sounds cool. I want to start doing some Santos-inspired rosettes if I'm not pigeonholed into this diamond thing. I'm torn between wanting a signature rosette and wanting to try new things

Anyway here's some more shenanigans

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 22 2011 19:19:28

JasonM

Posts: 2055
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

Sorry for the necromancy here, I was searching for info on this topic and essentially had the same question on methodology for making a rope pattern for a rosette or two.

I was getting ready to try out the method where you make a block stack of veneers, make one diagonal cut, flip the two half’s and glue back together to reconstruct the block again. But I’m wondering if this yield more purpling then I could ever use.

I feel like the simplest method might be what Eden showed, where you make a bunch of mitered cuts and glue the pieces back together standing on their sides... that’s how it looks to be done anyway. And Grand Master Bannana’s
stack of Dominos looks like it might be good for an ad-hoc pattern...

Do folks still use PU glue for this task?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2020 16:21:48

RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017

RE: Rope, braid, wheat, herringbone,... (in reply to JasonM)

quote:

But I’m wondering if this yield more purpling then I could ever use.

Yes, it will. Especially if you use blue and red veneers for the stack.

But yeah, the block method can make a crapload of purfling. You’re in it for the long haul though, so no matter, right?

I’ve taken to using white glue for the task recently, my reasoning is it dries clear and also I don’t want a glue that’s too brittle because the purfling has to maintain some flexibility for being bent. But probably anything handy that doesn’t leave a glue line is good enough. If you’re committed to hide glue for everything else, then I’d stick with that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 19 2020 16:54:03