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RE: what ever
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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 RE: what ever (in reply to Ron.M)
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quote:
n a certain way a guitar is a product and marketing it is lot like marketing a brand of shoes or something. But ti put it in the ace of a guitar maker that they have to do marketing is difficult for some of us to take. We're really more about thinking how a piece of wood feels then we thin it or how a neck feels. And this is important to the player. the player needs to understand that is our primary job, and it is often very difficult to shift between explaining what we do and being engaged in it.
Hopefully the player would rather have a guitar maker primarily engaged at that level of being in touch with the craft and the materials than primarily judging them on how their website works. We do have these contraption called telephones and Skype and you can call us up a talk to us, like live.
there is no argument here Stephen its wonderful that you are all those things and yes i do appreciate those things, they are great qualities in a guitar maker...but for me to appreciate you, your craft and those things you do i need to have heard of you first...that's all it comes down to
i am not from your city, noone in my city has one of your guitars...internet and marketing is all i have to hear about you and decide if i want one of your guitars or not, ...now that makes almost everyone else in another city or country....now tell me that your website and some marketing is not important ....if you wanna sell more guitars it is...
and Ron was spot on...if i see something on a website without price i automatically assume its very expensive that's why they not saying the price or i will write to them and it will be way way out of my price range and i will have to embarrassingly back off and admit to them that i cant afford it, alot of little things like that which dont cost anything to change can have an impact and make the difference between a sale or not, even if an approximate price or base price ......make a pol here of what is important to a consumer and i bet at least 80% will feel the same way...now it is up to you ...if hearing your customers and potential buyers opinion is important to you...personally i think it should be no ?
quote:
Hopefully the player would rather have a guitar maker primarily engaged at that level of being in touch with the craft and the materials than primarily judging them on how their website works. We do have these contraption called telephones and Skype and you can call us up a talk to us, like live.
you would think, in a perfect world where people dont judge a book by its cover...but most of us do...especially when we have to pay for it ......first impressions matter...remember i dont know you, i dont know your product, i dont know your prices, i dont know how good you are and how much you love your craft, i dont know if you are going to be pleasant to talk to on a phone or not ....why would i call you when i can find 20 other websites that have all the information i need quickly ? or skype you ? and if i did is your skype opened 24 hours a day ? do i make a plan to speak to you 4 days from now and add you ? my timezone or your timezone ? how do i get your skype id is it on your website ? there's the convenience thing again...like it or not we live in a day of convenience...all the information is online, we want it all yesterday, quotes, prices, deliveries, faq, paying bills, bank transfers etc.....i dont need to speak to anyone, that's a step out of my comfort zone...i rarely need to speak to someone i dont know on the phone...again i didn't invent this...is just the way things are, because of the internet we live in an age of laziness, convenience, getting the information we need quicker..etc.
i understand that you might not know how to or like doing this things...but you can get help...
anyway i am not going to try to convince you anymore  i wish you success in any case...not trying to be a pest to you but helpful
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Date Apr. 18 2011 22:34:59
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Many useful and well observed comments here, I think.
Most of guitar making people, repairmen and experts who I have communicated with privately, expressed a dismissing opinion to me about guitar forums and internet, similar to Anders in this thread.
But is it really that the percentage of **** in forums was to be that high?
I don´t think so. ( Not anymore. - Initially there used to be uncivilized times; at least in audio forums that I read in almost 15 years ago.)
It´s been a long time since I saw urban mythologie like say the tale of tight grain allegedly indicating top sheets quality, or that a certain brand was to be the shizzniz of classical guitars on default, etc.
Instead my impression over the past years is that the wisdom of specialists and experienced users seems to have raised the communitie´s ( hence: mine ) average knowledge by a fair measure, and that the overview of the community on products, sources and literature has helped the individual member. It definitly helped me a lot.
( Anyone here remember those times when all you had for product research was reflections of a tiny circle of consumers, clueless or sneaky sales clerks and pitching magazines?)
Sure, when it is about peripheral or unrelated matters, like say recording techniques and means in guitar forums there will rather show lack of special information; but that mustn´t surprise or annoy.
And what the internet is concerned ... Before it went public, reported on as communication network for the industry, I was too stupid at that time to estimate its general potential.
Today it has long since become invaluable means of research, exchange of info and escape from marketing vertigo and societal distortion through concertated media.
Right, how valuable it can be depends on user skills, but notwithstanding: It stays enormous and unique informational gift of late history without doubt. A tool for direct democracy like no other before.
( Which is in the same time, unfortunately, why there is already being worked on to slim it down, by selective mirroring etc.)
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Also very true what Florian and others pointed out above.
The term of marketing tends to leave bad taste in one´s mouth, because of all the slickness that it is justifiedly so associated with.
But marketing can be a fair thing just as well. Promoting without misleading.
Serving both, producer and customers who could actually be on for a good deal.
Certainly can there be imployed enticing means without equalling unethical conduct.
Tasty photographies, catchy layout, eloquent discriptions, highlighted features ...
There should be no problem with it as long as there is no sly conceal of inferiour attributes, exaggeration and desinformation.
Marketing at its best can be just fair information; even if so far wittnessed rather rarely that way.
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I think that there have been some practically useful suggestions in this thread, which can either be made use of or ignored.
Naturally.
Ruphus
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Date Apr. 19 2011 12:46:29
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aarongreen
Posts: 367
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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Wow this threads got some real legs. In terms of revitalizing interest, Stephen, I bow down and call you master. Not that I believe that was your initial aim but damn, nice job. :) Seriously though, I hope this helps you in your decision as to where to go from here.
Marketing is simply letting people know who you are and what you do. If someone looks deeper than the surface, you end up telling a lot more about yourself than you do about your product, anyways. Pretty much unavoidable. It's all good IMO until it gets to the point that you use comparisons and negativity to promote your work. Mine is better than so and so's. **** and not based in reality. As long as you avoid that, go for it. I haven't seen that here at least with the names Anders, Stephen, Andy, Randy, John, Peter or (hopefully) Aaron attached to that.
Eventually everything either stands or falls by its own merits, not because of how loudly it's hyped. Of course we can't expect that to happen in a time frame that pleases us either. For a hundred years Strad violins were nice but Stainer was where it was at......
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Date Apr. 19 2011 13:22:23
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: what ever (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
All this blah - blah bulsh*t makes me sick.
according to you guys, to be a good and honest luthier, its all about marketing, a good website etc.
One day we have to look like a smart*ss car salesman.
Get off my back. Or maybe I should seriously start considering doing something else with my life.
Nah Anders (& Stephen),
A real Luthier works away in hiding and experiments and produces masterpieces.
Telling anyone you exist is a sellout.
Keep all the guitars hidden away and someone will find them one day when you are dead and say what a master builder you were..
Meanwhile, don't worry about money.
Money, after all is only an illusion.
Only payos, peasants and ass-holes prostitute themseves for money.
The true Artist doesn't need money, only the Creative Force...that is the true Artist's food and shelter in this corrupt commercial world.
Draw the outline of an experimental bracing system on the back of an Electricity bill, sign it and send it back to them and I assure you they will be delighted.
Respect to both of you!
Most of us here sadly fall humbly short of that talent or those lofty ideals.
cheers,
Ron
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Date Apr. 19 2011 18:15:40
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Mark2
Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: what ever (in reply to estebanana)
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What a tough gig making flamenco guitars must be. Working players doing local gigs make little, yet the guitars cost a lot, and are worth it. But if you make 5-30k gigging a year, how many 5k axes can you justify?
Many of the people who can afford the instruments can't really use them as intended.
and then there's the conde, the ramirez, etc
Frankly, I don't understand how guys do it and make a living. But I don't have to understand because I'll never have the talent to make a guitar at all, much less a good one.
As to money, I'm fairly certain that money can be made at many ventures, but comes mostly to people who focus on earning it. I'd love to earn tons of money playing music, but playing music doesn't pay-selling your performance pays. That's something I have currently zero interest in so I'm not going to be making much money playing. Artistic pursuits by their nature, are not focused on making money.
There's little harder money I've earned than doing gigs, and I suspect it's the same with making instruments by hand. Lots of work, time, passion, little money.
I imagine part of the reward is a great player creating incredible music on the instrument you built. That must be extremely artistically satisfying. But as far as making money, that and 1.75 will get you bus fare. Best of luck to you Estebanana.
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Date Apr. 19 2011 20:25:57
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